D600 Dust/Oil/Lubricant Issue discussion/Discontinuation and price reductions

Msmoto

@ KFW1982

Maybe the individual who said "Don't change the lens" could be videoed stating this and put on uTube.....this might catch someone's attention.

KFW1982

In defense of the service center, it's just a camera repair shop that has been authorized and trained by Nikon to repair their cameras and lenses. Sure, the comment was snarly and may reflect some frustration on their part in trying to deal with this problem. If Nikon is denying the problem, then maybe they're not supporting their service centers, either? When I asked if they were familiar with the problem on the D600s, they admitted they were. Since they are only a service center, and not "Nikon," they cannot fix my camera for free. For that, as you noted, I have to send it Nikon (but they will do that for me for a nominal charge). Yes, it's still under warranty.

I do change my lenses a lot - and I shoot outside, as well. But as I said in my original post, I doubt this is a dust issue. Having swept the sensor filter (full across the sensor filter) a couple of times the spots did not go away. They only came off after I applied cleaning solution.

Like you, I practice what I preach. In December I sent an e-mail to Nikon Tech Support. This is part of their response:

It is not uncommon for a Digital SLR camera to attract and collect dust and debris on the filter in front of the image sensor...Some camera models may exhibit more dust than others and when shooting in 'real world' conditions, any dust is generally not noticeable. While certain tests can be performed to check for dust on the filter, these tests don't represent real world shooting conditions and may lead to false positives.

spraynpray

Interesting comment from Nikon there KFW. I wonder how true it is 'Some camera models may exhibit more dust than others'.

In conversation with Nikon yesterday, I asked if they would clean my D7000 under warranty, they said "maybe send it in and we will see if it is chargeable" (!). I thought it was a reasonable question that would have bought about a straight forward answer 'yes' or 'no'. I asked if it were possible to drop it in and wait for it, they said 'no', only drop it in and we will let you know when it has been done in about a week. I said that they should have a 'while you wait' facility given that they are getting so many problems these days with sensor contamination on sensors, particularly D600's and the reply came back 'we are seeing a few of those back, but we don't have that facility'. I asked if me cleaning my sensor voids the warranty, and they said if I damage it, yes - if not, no. Fair and clear.

It was not a confidence inspiring conversation and it was clear that the individual had tuned out as I could hear her typing while we were conversing. I made it clear at the beginning that I understood she was not in any way personally responsible for anything that was - or that I perceived as - a problem but the bubbly customer friendly voice became robotic when sensor dust and D600 was mentioned.

There was a company they said would do a while you wait, but that it would be fully chargeable every time if they did it..

KFW1982

"maybe send it in and we will see if it is chargeable"

LOL. It almost sounds as if they will see if they can find a way to charge it to you ...

I torn between cleaning it myself a second time and just sending it to Nikon. I'm told that Nikon does a complete cleaning of the interior of the camera, not just a sensor cleaning. That would seem to make it worth it to send it in, and I lack the skills to do anything more than just wipe the sensor. Perhaps a deeper cleaning would do more to resolve the issue - but that may be wishful thinking.

rschnaible

I am dumbfounded by Nikons lack of response to customers. Perhaps it is cultural, it is no doubt corporate policy to remain silent on issues. I have resorted to sending a letter to the President of Nikon USA on each occassion I have conversed with them with regards to issues. Issues as simple as getting a lens body cover back from the service shop that cost Nikon almost nothing to produce. Even with a low cost item such as a body cover, the customer service personnel have no authority to "do the right thing" and correct the problem. This is an internal policy issue for the companies front facing representatives. If Nikon want to remain relevant and grow market share, they will have to evolve the way they interact - interface with the customer. If they would be forthwith and direct, they would eliminate a lot of "false" service issues that are fostered by their resistance to having an open dialogue with customers.

If you need the contact information and address:

Noboyoshi Gokyu
President
Nikon Inc.
1300 Walt Whitman Road
Melville, NY 11747

He is slower to respond than you would expect, but his staff does respond when you send him a letter and correct the issue. It just is not an easy way to do business for them or us as consumers.

spraynpray

Could we please have a 'straw poll' of those who have the D600, do NOT change lenses or take the lens off to peer inside for no good reason and yet STILL have dust on their sensor? I'll bet there are a lot of lurkers who could help with this answer.

I have a D7000 which is another model that allegedly suffered with dust on sensor issues for a while, and indeed I thought I had some at one point, but it turned out to be a too cautious lens cleaning routine that was the issue. it is a year old now and I only have one spot. Mt lens changing routine is OCD however. I only change off the kit lens when it will not do what I need and typically - like if I am going to shoot motorsport, the 70-300 stays on from before I leave home to after I get back and my change routine goes like this:

Get the next lens out, undo the rear cap and stand the lens upright resting in its cap, loosen the lens on the camera, pick up the replacement in one hand and finish undoing the camera lens, remove it and immediately cover the hole by inserting the next lens into it. Place the lens I removed on/in the rear cap and leave that while I ensure the lens on the camera is inserted correctly then turn and lock it. Pick up the lens I took off with the rear cap, lock on the rear cap and replace in my bag. I wonder if it is my routine of not having my body open for more than 1 second that helps my sensor stay clean?

I have 6 lenses BTW.

timekeeper

I got a D600 from Costco in Dec. It has spots, mostly on the left just like others have reported. I'm debating if I should exchange it, I have 90 days. I have changed the lens a couple of times indoors and I'm careful.

I have a D70 that I've had for 6 years and it only has a couple spots at high f-stops, never cleaned the sensor.

Very disappointed with Nikon.

Here's a recent shot at a small aperture (scaled down from a 6mb jpg and I increased the contrast):

TriShooter

The primary reason I keep so many camera bodies around here is to avoid changing lens because of dust, and when I do change lenses it is inside. Nevertheless, I still change lenses as my needs change although it is infrequently. If you have ever watched the average person change lenses in a camera store, it is frightening. I usually look away if I am too far away to offer to help them. Based on what I have seen it is not hard to understand why Nikon does not want to be on the hook for cleaning all the cameras with dirty sensors.

Nevertheless when knowledgeable users have problems Nikon is obliged to figure out, and share, whether it is a production problem, or a design flaw and either fix it, or offer a recall to the users that need it. In most manufacturing companies production is very reluctant to admit a problem because they feel like every customer they have will take advantage of it, but the reality is that if it a production line problem they know when it happened and probably the serial numbers of cameras with the potential problem.

Our policy was tell customers to be on the lookout if we knew their was a potential problem in their shipments complete with possibly effected serial numbers. Our customers would generally find a way to work around the problem, and not charge us back for it, because they appreciated the heads up.

For some people, unfortunately I am one of them, they will double-check themselves, and go through their routine, including where they used the camera to see if it is something they have changed, or may be doing wrong that is causing the problem. People like like us do not appreciate manufacturers that are too paranoid to acknowledge a mistake; we all make them, so why let people suffer from not knowing. Even saying we know the camera has the problem, have not identified it yet, but will fix it when, or if it can be fixed is better than nothing.

avro707c

I don't like doing post-production work on my images, I don't have Photoshop, and I don't want to spend my time stamping out black spots in my skies from a new camera.  I spent a TON of hard-earned money on this system, way more than I have ever spent on electronics.  First the body at retail, then a handful of FX lenses, so I have spent many thousands!  I love the camera and just want to enjoy it without abnormal spots. 

I hope that we, the Nikon customers, pressure Nikon for a real fix.  That means contacting support if you see the issues and sending it in if you can.  They need to know the extent of this or they will not bother to fix it.  I also hope that, through helpful communities like this, we can share information and help each other.  Thanks all, let's keep together on this! 



Here are a few of the dpreview topics: 
Spots on the D600 sensor = http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50387991 
Some say that later serial numbers still might have the issue = http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50503737 ;
Several have been to Nikon Service and back without fixing = http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50529039

Don't worry, I know it's an issue. The way I deal with it is cleaning the sensor myself. Even though Nikon does free sensor cleaning for me, I know their way of cleaning sensors and so I do exactly the same method myself. It's pretty easy. And if you are in Japan, you can get the cleaning kit yourself from Nikon.

This is easier than going back to Nikon all the time for these types of things which are basically nuisance issues.

I understand that some people are nervous about doing that kind of cleaning. Me personally, I've had D700, D3s and D800e (no longer have D700) and did experience this problem once. As for normal dust, that does happen because I often change lenses in the field so to speak. It's inevitable there is going to be dust there, so there isn't much we can do about it other than be careful, and do sensor cleans when it gets too bad.

Nikon could put a very nice shutter system in there to close the camera up when we change lenses however. It would protect against dust that is on or inside the back of a lens, but it'd help with other dust particles.

[Deleted User]

This thread really makes me laugh - thanks everyone

Dust has been around since day one - some would say that's where we come from - and in the 'old' days of analogue (film) photography we saw the evidence on the negatives and reacted accordingly.

Now we're in the digital age we complain far more - but to my way of thinking the problem is exactly the same.

If a speck of dust fell on the film it either fell off again as the film was transported, or moved with the film and therefore was only a problem for one frame. We 'spotted' it out later.

However, if a speck of dust falls onto a digital sensor it more than likely sticks - yes, the ultrasonic cleaning can help, but we do tend to see 'energized' specks clinging on for dear life.

People seem to have forgotten diffraction and the ravages that it can do, and blindly shoot at f/22 and then wonder why A: the shot isn't possibly as sharp as it could have been, B: there are spots appearing in areas of the image.

I have 3 camera bodies, all recent (and 2 of which are sited here) and I simply cannot agree with any of the 'mass hysteria' surrounding oil and/or dust spots - it just hasn't happened to me. Sure I have had dust on the sensor, but this is by no means a regular occurrence and when I see it in post, I clean the sensor. I do this as much (or in fact as little) now as I did with my D300/D700 before.

So maybe I'm lucky? Yes, perhaps, but also I have to blame the Internet for allowing otherwise sane, reasonable people to voice and base their opinions on myth and hearsay.

Before you rush out to buy an oxygen tent in which to change your lenses just remember: dust is a fact of life - live with it 'cos you're never going to be able to avoid it completely - you'll never master the problem, so try to master the solution.

tc88

Darkside, let's just remember that if one does not have nice things to say, let's just not say it.

I can find many issues with the logic of your statements, but I will refrain from adding fuel to the fire.

spraynpray

Hey tc, we are all entitled to our opinions even if they don't agree. I have my own opinions on this, the main one being that we don't know. We don't know whether the dust is generated internally in the body either normally or abnormally, whether it enters from outside, whether it ends up in the same place on the sensor due to air pumping in and out of the lens when focused or zoomed eddies around and deposits it in the same area, we just don't know. It is clear that the internet is key in allowing information to flow like never before and that can be good or bad depending on a number of factors. A key thing we don't know is whether it is oil or dust.

[Deleted User]

Darkside, let's just remember that if one does not have nice things to say, let's just not say it.

I appreciate, no really I do, that for a whole lot of people the world is pink and full of cuddly pussy cats... my world (ie; the real world) is slightly different and I'm not trying to make anyone agree with what I say - just to think a little before launching into pointless debates about a subject which, for the most part, is completely imagined - in my opinion.

roombarobot

@darkside, do you have a D600? If so, then you can say you are not experiencing this issue. However, you can't say that others are not. (That is, one can not have an opinion about a fact.) Nobody said that every D600 has this problem, or has it to the same degree. In my case, I can't get 200 shots off before getting spots that appear at medium apertures. That is what I am experiencing and it is not acceptable and not at all like any other camera I have used.

Sato

I decided that the D600 would be the best choice for me as a replacement of the D5100.
This week, There will be a sale/discount thing at a national major retailer (usually twice a year.) which means the D600 will cost €1404,- instead of €1699,-

Now there's just two questions I got regarding the whole D600 Dust/Oil/Lubricant Issue:
1. Is every D600 out there affected by it or is it just a percentage of them? (And if so, How much?)
2. Should I buy now and risk getting one with the Dust/Oil/Lubricant Issue, And the uncertainty of what Nikon will do to fix it?
Or am I better off waiting a couple of months to see how Nikon handles the situation? And get one when there all fixed.

There two major reasons I want a new camera:
I'd like to have the more direct controls on the camera and the ability to do micro adjustments to the AF for my lenses, But that's more something I want and not something i really need.
And I want the ability to remote control my SB-700 when its off camera. But that can be solved by getting two extra SB-700's and use one on the camera and two off. (Was going to get a second one anyway, Might as well get two extra.)

Because these are just minor things, I'm not willing to spend €700,- on a D7000 that I'll replace with a D600 as soon as the issue has been resolved later this year.
And I'm am capable of waiting a couple of months. I don't need it right now although I would like to have it.

[Deleted User]

@darkside, do you have a D600?

As it happens I do own one.

If you read what I am saying, I don't think I've ever implied that the issue does not exist - but I do question the fact that suddenly 'a large number of people' seem to be having a problem with something I maintain existed anyway.

Your '200' shots is perfectly valid - but has anything else changed in the meantime? The environment where you live? (Have you moved?) The kind of shots you take? (Have you started doing different types of shots recently?)

I'm not going to continue to 'contribute' to this thread as I really don't want it to become a slanging match between members - I've said my piece, it's for you to agree or disagree - however please READ what I wrote.

roombarobot

@Sato, I sold my D5100 and lenses to get my D600 for similar reasons. I wanted more direct controls and I wanted a better AF system. Add to that much better dynamic range. I got all those things.

I also got a D600 with the spot problem. It is on its third trip to Nikon service. I wish I had not bought the D600, or at least not bought it yet. It has the potential to be an awesome camera, but as it is now I can't trust it to not produce images with spots.

My advice would be to wait. Best of luck in whatever you choose to do.

tc88

Ok, let's have an exercise of logic here. No, I'm not trying to prevent people having different opinions. While D600 has good attributes, I found darkside's posting to be more emotional than the "mass hysteria" that he's referring to. My appology, "darkside".

This thread really makes me laugh - thanks everyone
Dust has been around since day one - some would say that's where we come from - and in the 'old' days of analogue (film) photography we saw the evidence on the negatives and reacted accordingly.
Now we're in the digital age we complain far more - but to my way of thinking the problem is exactly the same.
If a speck of dust fell on the film it either fell off again as the film was transported, or moved with the film and therefore was only a problem for one frame. We 'spotted' it out later.
However, if a speck of dust falls onto a digital sensor it more than likely sticks - yes, the ultrasonic cleaning can help, but we do tend to see 'energized' specks clinging on for dear life.

Well let's say hypothetically that a camera generates 5 pieces of dust for every 100 actuation. In film, that will affect 5 out of 100 shots as the film takes the dust away. In digital, after the first 100 actuation, all your shots will have 5 spots, and after first 200 actuation, all your shots will have 10 spots. So the effect of dust/spot is much more critical in digital. The problem is not same here. What's acceptable in film may not be acceptable in digital.

People seem to have forgotten diffraction and the ravages that it can do, and blindly shoot at f/22 and then wonder why A: the shot isn't possibly as sharp as it could have been, B: there are spots appearing in areas of the image.

One can make the same argument that people shouldn't shoot portrait at f/2.8 since after all everything else will be blurred anyway and one might as well shoot in front of a white wall at home. Or one can take a snap shoot and blur the background in post instead of carry a heavy f/2.8 lens. It for sure will be faster to blur the background than fixing spots related to f/22 in post.

The point I'm trying to make here is it's irrelevant what aperture people choose to shot at for whatever purpose. The expectation is that the camera produce expected images. Unless Nikon makes a disclaimer why D600 should not be shot at slow aperture and why, it's reasonable for people to expect it to work since most other cameras work just fine.

I have 3 camera bodies, all recent (and 2 of which are sited here) and I simply cannot agree with any of the 'mass hysteria' surrounding oil and/or dust spots - it just hasn't happened to me. Sure I have had dust on the sensor, but this is by no means a regular occurrence and when I see it in post, I clean the sensor. I do this as much (or in fact as little) now as I did with my D300/D700 before.
So maybe I'm lucky? Yes, perhaps, but also I have to blame the Internet for allowing otherwise sane, reasonable people to voice and base their opinions on myth and hearsay.

From what I can collect, you have D300/D700/D800, you may not even have a D600. If you have D600 and you are lucky as you say, you agree that there are average luck and unlucky people. So should their experience be written off as "mass hysteria" and don't count but yours count?

If it's just a few spots randomly located, then yes, one can argue it's regular dust. As shown in timekeeper's picture, statistically it clearly indicates an internal problem since the probability that that many dust spots clustered around top left corner caused by random dust distribution is very low. And that picture is not alone and there are many similar reports out there. Again, the probability that all those cases which all concentrate around a same location are caused by random dust is very little. Internet has been there for a while and I haven't seen this amount of reports on dust before. Also it doesn't matter if it only affects x% of people. If on other cameras, it affects 0.x% of people, then D600 has an issue.

Before you rush out to buy an oxygen tent in which to change your lenses just remember: dust is a fact of life - live with it 'cos you're never going to be able to avoid it completely - you'll never master the problem, so try to master the solution.

Are you advocating that people spend $20 and take the effort every 200 shots to clean up their D600? This is just like saying that one buy a new car and it burns 1qt oil every 500 miles. He's then told that he should just add a bottle of oil every couple gas fill ups and be done. The thing that needs to be compared here is normal expectation which is how other cameras behave. If D600 deviates and requires significantly more maintenance/repair, then it's defective.

pippigurl

IMHO most of those with the D600 are not first time camera owners . I know, a generalization, but one I feel true. Speaking for myself I have had several Nikon bodies leading up to the D600, of which by the way I am on my third! So as previous DSLR owners we have a history of what to expect form a camera in regards to the subject matter...oil and dust on the sensor. And, historically, I have had to clean the sensors on my previous DSLRs so infrequesntly that I had to review the procedure late last year to clean my D7000 after nearly 8K actuations. If the issue was as has been suggested that the contamination is due to poor lense changing practice...why have so many failed to experience this with other DSLRs and lenses.The issue we are seeing is new to all who own the D600. Be it caused by over oiling at the manufacturing site, new materials on the mirror assembly, whatever...if this is going to be corrected and addressed by Nikon every owner must address the issue with Nikon diectly. And I don't mean just some repair center. To spend this kind of money and have to worry about relying on LR4 or PS to correct their problem is wrong. Earlier in this thread Rschnaible posted the address for Mr. Goyku in Melville. I have written to Mr. Goyku expressing my desire for a solution...no word yet. I would encourage all to spend 10 minutes and do the same. In addition, as long as the retailer that I bought my D600 from is going to exchange it for a new one...I will continue to send it back. Perhaps they have more influence. Enough...my thoughts.

spraynpray

I know this isn't important in the context of your post Pippi, but I doubt that the contamination you are suffering is oil. I read somewhere that FX suffers contamination more than Dx through a greater charge effect attracting dust which is why I mentioned elsewhere it could be the shape of the body causing an eddy in the air to deposit dust in the same place through zooming or mirror movement. It could be a difference in the materials used to make the sensor which is particular to the D600 - who knows? None of us. Who cares? - all of us. We all want to see an official Nikon Japan response to this for once and for all. Oh, and it needs to be the truth.

Sato

Followup on my previous post,

I just ordered the Nikon D600, Didn't want to regret not getting it for €1404,13. (€1600,- and up is the normal price at the moment. Body only.)
Asked the same question I asked here on a couple of Dutch forums and didn't get many reply's but enough to deduct that there are D600's out there without this issue.

So I decided to take the change and hope for the best...
I'll come back tot this topic to post if my D600 has this issue or not.

timekeeper

Even Nikon's website has some bad reviews about the dust:

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Nikon-Products/Product/Digital-SLR-Cameras/25488/D600.html

Tradewind35

Very sad to say that it appears that corporate rot has set in at Nikon HQ. Are there design/quality control/product testing issues with the D600? We don't have the data to determine what is statistically significant regarding failure rates in comparison with other models.
What is blatanty obvious however is that there is viral critcism of the D600 in particular and this requires effective management. If the product is good then defend it vigorously with open integrity. A head in the sand response simply will not do. Come on Nikon, for goodness sake get onto the case.
Robin

T3LF

When registering my J1 today today for the 2 year warrenty over the phone, i asked about the d600 and the dust problem as im intrested in buying it. The guy over the phone reconised that the d600 has a problem but intresting he said recently they are having a lot less calls and returns about the dust issue now he said dont buy it over the internet go to the shop and check to see if the camera you are buying there and then has dust on it already if it has it has the problem so avoid and if not it could be a good one.

Im considering getting the d600, i can get it for £1250 body only brand new but is over the web so i can not check.
Im tempted but might just pay the extra £500 for the d800 still not sure.

timekeeper

I am thinking about returning the D600 and getting a D800. I guess the D800 has some issues too.