Making Money ( from Photography)

Symphotic

I just got a gig doing a technical documentation at a nuclear power plant in Canada. I much prefer taking pictures of things over people: I don't think I have the skill set required to do weddings.

Photophun

I am new to photography and am trying to break into the portrait circuit, make a name for my self, and learn at the same time. I don't believe in charging clients to learn on their dime and would love to be paid for my expenses at the very least while I am doing all this. I offer 720P long edge photos online for free and print copies can be arranged.

One thing that chaps my hide is when established or other struggling photographers give me harsh words for offering a cheap to free option. Well this is the new reality of the market place. If those clients don't want to pay then either you didn't offer them what they were looking for, getting the shot is not time sensitive, or they are just plain cheap. I don't see the established photographers welcoming new people, showing them how to use their gear, providing models, and letting them experiment.

For me this is a great way to learn about marketing, shooting on location, learn from my mistakes, and make new friends. Soon enough I will move on to Commercial and Weddings but for now its time to play in the bottom of the barrel. The competition is fierce out there and there is no shortage of new blood at the starting line.

proudgeek

Photophun, it's a reasonable approach and I understand the desire to work on spec on a loss leader, but when do you decide that you've learned enough to begin charging for your services? Will clients agree that you've learned enough to start charging? It's a whole lot easier to lower prices than to raise them.

Rx4Photo

RenardRichie13, thanks. I was reading a Bambi Cantrell interview where she said she does basically the same thing. 30% non-refundable deposit up front to book the date, X% 90 days away, and the remaining X% one week away. Paid in full before the actual wedding date.

@Photophun, You've made good points. I've done a few "freebie" portrait sessions but guess what....I'm learning as I do this. Repetition is a huge factor in gaining proficiency in an art. Sure we can go out every day and shoot landscapes or products and learn lots but to shoot people requires willing and patient "people." Unless they're being dropped on your front doorstep every morning you have to work at getting them in front of your camera. So offering someone a couple of free retouched prints or files on CD is a just compensation in my opinion while learning.

Photophun

but when do you decide that you've learned enough to begin charging for your services? Will clients agree that you've learned enough to start charging? It's a whole lot easier to lower prices than to raise them.

That is the million dollar question but I believe I have set my self up with the $$ included in the equation. Once I am getting more bookings than I have time for or want then my prices go up. Supply VS Demand. The one thing I did take to hart was its a lot easier to include a value with a discount and then remove the discount rather than do it for free. I am offering clients reasonably sized photos for online but are to small to print for their time and my portfolio. That sounds like a fair trade for their time and if they would like a print ready copy then there is a fee.

sevencrossing

. .....................Once I am getting more bookings than I have time for or want then my prices go up. .................its a lot easier to include a value with a discount and then remove the discount rather than do it for free. ,,,,

Sounds a good business plan good to me

RenardRichie13

A normal rate of increase on wedding is every 6 300 dollar increase. (somewhere sometime i read this) I don't follow it whatsoever however. I've seen 15k wedding photographer (1 day coverage nothing else). shot worst than $1k wedding photographer. In the end of day it is at least your passion and you want to just get the shot over money. Getting paid is just a secondary perk. If you work and your love showed in your shots and you're happy with them. that is all that matters

MikeGunter

Hi all,

Getting paid is just a secondary perk. If you work and your love showed in your shots and you're happy with them. that is all that matters

Unless you have a family, a house and a mortgage, and kids to put through school, and things like that...

The there is a phrase in Norwegian I learned from watching "Lilyhammer" on Netflix, called "reality-cleck". ;-)

I think it means sometimes you have to live in a real world and do real things. If you are making a living, money matters.

You and your family can't eat feelings.

Finally, and most importantly, no one can deny that the industry is changing so dramatically that even the CEO of Yahoo this past week announced there's no more professional photographers anymore.

That's pretty big announcement if you didn't get the memo. The Chicago Sun-Times guys did.

It's clear that 'change' is in the air.

My best,

Mike

Mac_The_Knife

technology is leveling the playing field.

RenardRichie13

Well granted i guess that comes from me who is a weekend warrior.
I paid mortgage food etc through my first job as a web designer.
I guess you're right but that thing i said works on anything you do.

If you love what you do at your work then embrace it. It doesn't have to be photography.
I certainly do not like web design that much. I would rather shoot and edit photos all day and dealing with my own clients.

So in terms of passion yeah getting paid is secondary.

sevencrossing

Hi all, ................................
Unless you have a family, a house and a mortgage, and kids to put through school, and things like that... ...........
My best,

Mike

+1
It was trying to buy a house, that made me leave profession photography
40 years later, the mortgage is paid off and I have returned to photography
I no long need to earn a living from photography, just want to "make some money" to buy a D4, a 24mm f 1.4 and the 800mm f 5.6

scary thought, the 800 mm cost more than my first house

Msmoto

In my last full time photo position I earned enough in 21 months of work to buy the new 800mm f/5.6. Of course that is provided I did not pay taxes, eat, or spend anything else......LOL

Rx4Photo

@ RenardRichie13, may I ask how you're marketing yourself? My full time profession is so far from photography it's funny. But my passion is strong and I really enjoy portraiture. The toughest part for me is convincing my wife that there's a chance I could make a buck here and there when she thinks I'm merely having fun.
She's now coming around, even to the point of agreeing that I need my own webpage and business card but none of this can encroach on the family life. I'm pretty sure a check with my name on it for a gig would change that real fast. Anyway, so how are you putting yourself out there? Thanks.

sevencrossing

Your own web site and a business card are essential
Not allowing your business, encroach on your family life, is I think, virtually impossible
but as you say, if your earn enough for a few luxuries , and I am not talking about yet another lens here , then yes, it is amazing what you can get away with

Don't underestimate the power of face book; don't worry about people copying your photos. IMHO you make money from commissions not trying to sell stuff you have already take

Symphotic

+1
It was trying to buy a house, that made me leave profession photography
40 years later, the mortgage is paid off and I have returned to photography
I no long need to earn a living from photography, just want to "make some money" to buy a D4, a 24mm f 1.4 and the 800mm f 5.6

scary thought, the 800 mm cost more than my first house

+1 to both of you. When I was an idealistic college student I believed I could make a living taking pictures. Then I started dating a young woman who was breaking into photojournalism and studio photography, and I realized I lacked both the capital for equipment and the people skills for studio work. I also found out she was one of the few university graduates I knew who made even less than I did. So I went on to a career as an analytical chemist, while shooting pictures as a hobby.

Over time my employers began to include photography and written documentation as part of my job description, and even paid for some of my gear. After many years, I now have customers who buy cameras and lenses for me to use on their projects (but I haven't been able to get anyone to spring for the 800mm or a D4.)

All this makes me a semi-pro: I use photography as a very small part of my gross revenues, but the time I spend taking pictures pays quite well, and the equipment gets paid for.

I still haven't figured out the people skills, though...

Golf007sd

I must say, it is a joy to have a hobby that yields so much reward yet none of the headache's or hard ship that come from relying on it as a form of income.

Now...for those that have made photography your business, then like any other business: you have to separate yourself from the pack. As a Professional Photographer you should not fear me (the enthusiast hobbyist) or any "Tom-Dick-or-Harry" with a camera...regardless of what his or her gear is. Think of all the activates each one of us does for living day-to-day and see if you could classify your self as a pro and thus put a fear in those that do. I.E. if you made a dish for yourself or family does it make you a pro like a chief that makes hundreds or thousands of dishes to feed his clients? I'm a Professional Driver, I put thousands of mile on the car each month, I do not fear cab drivers, or bus drivers or any other person behind a car that transports people, because of the level of service i provide and the manner in which I do it. Yet, I do not consider myself a Professional Race Car driver...well at least not yet. I don't have enough miles behind a sports car on a race track.

Professionals KNOW who and what they are...they possess skills that "average Joe" lack in great detail. Elaborate and demonstrate your professional skill to your customer and he or she will see the light.

As a Professional your capital rewards awaits...you will obtain it by your performance. But, if you lack the skills to perform then you will know that you are not worthy of calling yourself: a Professional...photography or not.

RenardRichie13

@Rx4Photo

Of course the essentials. website, business card. I have facebook page i post just to post and see what's up.
Majority of my business right now comes from networking referral with other pro photographers in the area.
We all share referrals. They are all already established long time photographers with word to mouth business.

I also partner up with local cake shop and videographers. I have a couple of priests (christian and hindu), imam (muslim) and justice of piece that gives me referrals.

Lots of networking. Try to get in touch with a prophotographers along the area and ask to second shoot. Once he trust you you're good and you can be the lead for your own business. I didn't second shoot for anyone. I started with a friend wedding and just jump in. (i know what you guys are gonna say, but i did well at the wedding and i have photography experience under my belt that i know i can do it.

Photophun

I think what scares the professionals and those who have made photography their business is that that the level of quality by amateurs is improving. Also people are able to now shoot 500+ digital photos and luck out with one or two great shots, aka spray N pray. Cellphone photos can be used for print and instagram photos are every where. Never before has the world had so much access to making and creating photos so easily.

RenardRichie13

@photopun

Shouldn't scare them (the professionals) though. In the end it is your work will always be the only thing that makes client want to hire you. If you're consistently get good shots and then the client is happy then it is good.
It is after all your business you're constantly shaping your style.

I think i have said this before. 15k photographer that i saw the other day his photo is just so bad but he still get the client.

What you pay is what you get generally rings true in the entire camera/photography industry.

sevencrossing

. Also people are able to now shoot 500+ digital photos and luck out with one or two great shots,

That will only work if the client only wanted 1 or 2 photos

If my clients wants say, photographs of 8 rooms of 12 houses, he is not going to be very happy if he only get two photos

Most of my paid work, is not about taking amazing photos, it is about understanding what the client wants

typical instruction for a wedding " and you MUST get a picture of Auntie Ethel, as she has come a long way , by the way, she is not very photogenic and is camera shy "

Msmoto

I was in a profession for over twenty years and worked about 12 of every 14 days, about 100 hours per week, and was fairly successful. My guess is to be a success in almost any profession, this may be what it takes.

Today, although I receive no money for any photograph, I will still work very hard sometimes to get what I am after. Professional photography is in no way an 8 to 5 job IMO.

RenardRichie13

I think it depends what type of photography you do. I know that my goal 6-8 years from now that ill limit myself to about 20 weddings a year and charging 6k for a day coverage. Albums and print would be extra. That gives me ample of time to edit meet clients and vacation. All in 120k per year. If I want more ill do a studio with portrait time and tap into high school portrait market. Maybe I'm glorifying this lol

Msmoto

If one is to start a small business, photography being the primary theme, it would be my opinion to very carefully sit down with an expert on this, CPA, or other, and look at the start up costs, the exact services one wants to offer, and to have someone who will honestly criticize your work and ongoing production.

I run into "photographers" who are selling photos and the work is inconsistent. If one looks at my Flickr photostream one sees a lot of "snapshots". Occasionally there will be a good one, but a lot are there simply for folks to grab and use for their own personal use. For a pro, only the very best should be on a website as an advertisement. Yet there are so many where color balance is off, focus, composition, just a lot of less than great shots. And the fees charged by these photogs are in no way consistent with the quality.

One photographer in South Dakota has a website with no second rate images. And this is a good example of what every pro should aspire to: http://www.greglatza.com/#/Portfolios/People/1/

sevencrossing

I have say, I very wary of "expects" . Ex (a former) spurt (a drip under pressure)

If you have a good idea just DO IT , you may have to learn the hard way but at least you will have done the difficult bit , making a start

Needles to say, this might not be good advice, if you already have, a well-paid, secure job and a wife, kids plus a mortgage

RenardRichie13

@MSMoto understandable.
Greg Latza's target market is not mine. It is expected of him to show properly exposed commercial like photos on his website.

Mine is closely similar to
www.ryanbrenizer.com
www.jonaspeterson.com
www.wearethebloggers.com
All of whom are top wedding photographers in the world.

Its about the story as i say.