D810, All Discussions, Questions

JJ_SO

you mean, the longtime-exposure photographers? Just because fans of ND filters will also face problems when taking long term exposures in bright daylight. Whilst Night-phtographers benefit of high ISO and fast lenses. When I am around in a city at night I don't bother much using a tripod. To me it's kind of sport to push those high ISO to their limits because that's what they are developed for.

Golf007sd

Here are two wedding photographers review of using the D810 for weddings:
1) Nikon D810 and Sigma 50mm f/1.4 Art Performance
2) Nikon D810 for Wedding Photography

Vipmediastar_JZ

Nasim did a good job with that Combo. I can now appreciate what the sigma offers and what the D810 offers as well.

Golf007sd

Is Nikon D810 Sharper than D800E?

Conclution: "...there is no sharpness difference between the Nikon D810 and D800E cameras. Looks like the original Nikon D800E filter stack was quite effective and was not negatively affecting the maximum potential of the sensor in any way. Although Nikon completely removed the optical low pass filter from the D810, it did not result in increased sharpness. When comparing images side by side, I could not see any differences in sharpness either."

********** Update ***********

"Originally, I stated that there was no sharpness difference between the Nikon D810 and D800E cameras. I based my assumption on the center performance only and did not look further into potential differences in performance in the mid-frame and the corners. While differences in the center are indeed very minor, subsequent testing revealed that lenses perform differently in the mid-frame and the corners, with the D810 continuously producing sharper results on some lenses. This was especially noticeable in the corners, where I saw increased sharpness up to 10% on the D810. I do not yet know why this happens, but my theory is that lenses react differently to the new filter stack on the D810. If I find lenses with reduced performance when compared to the D800E, I will report my findings."

Photobug

Interesting results Golf. I can hear Msmoto grinning from ear to ear. )

Seriously, I thought the D810 would be a tad sharper and maybe minimal improvement in color.

JonMcGuffin

A few things to consider. Though the sensor may not be possible of resolving a sharper image than the one before it, it *IS* possible the D810 may be able to make sharper images at slower shutters speeds due to the better shutter mechanism built inside the camera.

So, to ask the question again "Does the D810 take sharper pictures than the D800" That may be able to be answered with both a yes and a no

JJ_SO

So, to ask the question again "Does the D810 take sharper pictures than the D800" That may be able to be answered with both a yes and a no

How come you're considering a "no"? Given the same situation, in all cases resulting to a sharper picture it will be made by D810, there's no doubt to me. Mind you, you were talking about D800 and even the D800E is sharper. I expect to see D800E-like results.

Better AF is on D810, especially at high framereates and AF-C
Like you said, less shutter vibration also.

So why the "no"? Do you mean at certain specific lab conditions with LiveView AF and focus bracketing the sharpest pictures of D810 and D800E could not be spotted to be different? Maybe. But since I'm hardly ever using my camera under best of all conditions, the real-life difference does matter and I expect, will lead far more often to sharper pictures.

Bokeh_Hunter

A few things to consider. Though the sensor may not be possible of resolving a sharper image than the one before it, it *IS* possible the D810 may be able to make sharper images at slower shutters speeds due to the better shutter mechanism built inside the camera.

So, to ask the question again "Does the D810 take sharper pictures than the D800" That may be able to be answered with both a yes and a no

I'm not sure the shutter mechanism will make much of a difference. The Mirror bounce is the culprit almost all of the time. The D800 shows such minute shakes because of the resolution, and so to will the D810.

I have been watching the reviews and videos and downloaded a few RAW shots and just as with the D800 vs D800e, with the D810 I could see a slight increase in sharpness, but once I kicked up the clarity or sharpness just a tad in LR on the D800 files, I couldn't tell a difference at all. That is my litmus test to decide to spend $$ on an upgrade, "Does it do something that existing software can't do easily?" The video that Golf007sd with Moose really sums it up well with his check list. If you aren't printing 20x30+ prints all the time, most of the upgraded features in sharpness, raw, color controol (The new "flat" type is interesting though), etc. are not that big of a deal. If you shoot sports, fast moving wildlife, the increase could be worth it.

It is good to see the increases and refinements of the D810 but for me, I don't enough of an advantage to upgrade from a D800. If I didn't already have a D800 or were holding onto a D600 and always wished you had the 36mp sensor, I would get the D810 though. If your pocketbook is already pinched, finding a good deal on a D800 will not disappoint you either.

heartyfisher

Is Nikon D810 Sharper than D800E?

Conclution: "...there is no sharpness difference between the Nikon D810 and D800E cameras. Looks like the original Nikon D800E filter stack was quite effective and was not negatively affecting the maximum potential of the sensor in any way. Although Nikon completely removed the optical low pass filter from the D810, it did not result in increased sharpness. When comparing images side by side, I could not see any differences in sharpness either."

??? the article must have been changed.. cos the conclusion is totally the opposite now.. ie there is a small difference in the centre but a significant difference in the edges ..

donaldejose

Looks like if you don't need the additional speed (sports or wildlife?) and noise reduction (weddings in church or theater productions) a D800 or D800e will work just fine.

Golf007sd

??? the article must have been changed.. cos the conclusion is totally the opposite now.. ie there is a small difference in the centre but a significant difference in the edges ..

You are quite correct...looks like there has been an update to their testing.

"Originally, I stated that there was no sharpness difference between the Nikon D810 and D800E cameras. I based my assumption on the center performance only and did not look further into potential differences in performance in the mid-frame and the corners. While differences in the center are indeed very minor, subsequent testing revealed that lenses perform differently in the mid-frame and the corners, with the D810 continuously producing sharper results on some lenses. This was especially noticeable in the corners, where I saw increased sharpness up to 10% on the D810. I do not yet know why this happens, but my theory is that lenses react differently to the new filter stack on the D810. If I find lenses with reduced performance when compared to the D800E, I will report my findings."

Bokeh_Hunter

There is the new "Clarity" slider to the picture controol - I wonder how much has to do with that?
I haven't seen anyone who has played with that slider yet and only have said it is set at "+1". I would be interesting to know what the images look like with it at 0, or -2 (whatever the scale is.) Those of us who recall the days before that slider in LR know how much of a difference that made.

I have no opinion about it either way. Just would be interesting to know how much is software driven vs. sensor technology.

JJ_SO

Clarity settings would take effect to the whole picture, not just the corners. Depends if vignetting control is on or not, maybe that could influence clarity, too.

I wonder which lenses are supposed to be sharp to the corner at best aperture…

"but my theory is that lenses react differently to the new filter stack on the D810" which stack is he talking about? No AA filter, no deep pass filter makes the glass in front of the sensor pretty much an ordinary HQ glass.

Pity, @Ade is no longer around here, I'm sure he could tell more about filter or not.

manhattanboy

"but my theory is that lenses react differently to the new filter stack on the D810" which stack is he talking about? No AA filter, no deep pass filter makes the glass in front of the sensor pretty much an ordinary HQ glass.

Pity, @Ade is no longer around here, I'm sure he could tell more about filter or not.

1) The filter theory does make some sense. The light would have the most "bending" to do through a large filter stack at the corners versus the center frame.

2) What happened to Ade?! Did he make the convert to mirrorless?

Bokeh_Hunter

There are multiple filters in front of the sensor, IR Cut, UV cut, Low pass (partial AA filter), etc. in front of all camera sensors. Sensors are far more sensitive than our eyes and have the inherent ability to capture more "details" than what we get without modification. The key with what the word "details" includes though. It doesn't mean sharpness or better IQ but captured spectrum detail. Infrared and Ultra Violet wave lengths (above/below what our eyes can see) actually degrade image quality and can shift colors in the back end processing that we perceive as not natural. If you do a search on UV and IR converted camera images you will start to see the difference. IR for instance has a different focal plane than visible light so allowing more IR wavelengths in can make edges of foliage become less defined.
10 years ago the filters used in front were actually multiple filters that were very strong and worked to emulate what the eye can see. Since then though, they have moved to using Multi coatings (less glass pieces/filters) that are less powerful and more refined for what wavelengths are allowed through. Take that with the move to CMOS sensors (which are inherently softer than CCDs), and testing over the years, have found that dramatically lowering the strength along with new algorithms for computing data, they can make the images sharper. That has just been the natural progression of technology and testing over time.

That is the base of what a filter stack is/does, and over time it has helped, but I doubt the improvements have been so resounding that the effect is easily seen.

Chalk the sharpness up small improvements in multiple areas. If it was one specific ground shaking thing, Nikon would have been touting it from Mt. Fuji for all to hear.

Clarity settings would take effect to the whole picture, not just the corners.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. You pointed to vignetting controol - it would be easily conceivable for them to apply a similar algorithm to add sharpness and clarity to specific ares to the outputted file. It is even more plausible that they would not make this an option, and just apply it, because really, who doesn't want a sharper image? They could probably even apply it based on the f-stop used. They can (and do) make adjustments based on lenses, scenes and settings without us "knowing" or choosing various options all the time. Every company does it and it shouldn't come as any surprise.

Camera's are small computers that are tuned to specific sensors and whatever else they (Nikon) want. The 810 has the new processor that gives them more abilities than they had before. Really the tweaks they can do are limitless - as too are the impact those may have on the user experience. There probably are better algorithms in processing data that may create even better files and sharper images, but if that pushed the FPS to 1 frame a second, that would not fly with users. Everything is a compromise.

heartyfisher

actually I am surprised that there is a sharpness improvement .. as theoretically there should be no improvement at all with the removal of the AA filter. so I guess the 2-3% improvement in the centre and the 10% improvement on the edges seems to hint that the effect may actually be something else. ie that there is a difference between the centre and edge point to a factor relating to something else.

The most obvious cause is the thinner stack infront of the sensor. as we know the further from the center the thicker the amount of material the light needs to travel through. so this may be the cause. still 10% is a lot to account for. so it may be that the thickness is much more reduced. maybe some other layers have also been removed or reduced in thickness especially the protective layer.

Another factor may be bec the actual sensor is different. so the micro layers infront of the light sensitive pixels would be different. ie the colour filters and micro lenses position and sizes would be different. I think this is more likely the major source of the difference. Maybe the sensor now has offset microlenses like the CoolpixA. or some other tech that helps with the more acute angles that the light is coming from at the edges.

Bokeh_Hunter

Like I said above, I'm sure it is a bunch of little improvements. Personally I don't think it has anything to deal with the filters in-front of the sensor at all - it is optical glass and it is razor thin already. It just doesn't have that large of an effect the IQ at all.

The micro lenses in front of the sensor was a thought I had as well. There are always new improvements with those in various forms, but I have not seen the D810 sensor is in any way majorly different (maybe just a V2 upgrade) from the original 36mp in the D800. Again that is something we would have seen from Nikon or Sony pointing out.

I do think most of the increase is due to the new micro processor and being able to utilize better software to process the files.

We know it is not, but the advent of a curved sensor (I believe it is Sony that has announced that one), that could really be a big boon for sharpness. The manufacturing of that though could result in skyrocketing price as well.

Whatever is causing the increase, it is good to see.

PB_PM

The micro lenses in front of the sensor was a thought I had as well. There are always new improvements with those in various forms, but I have not seen the D810 sensor is in any way majorly different (maybe just a V2 upgrade) from the original 36mp in the D800. Again that is something we would have seen from Nikon or Sony pointing out.

Yes, I think the difference is about as large as that which separated the D3 and D700 sensors. Minor inter-generational tweaks, but nothing big.

heartyfisher

The micro lenses in front of the sensor was a thought I had as well. There are always new improvements with those in various forms, but I have not seen the D810 sensor is in any way majorly different (maybe just a V2 upgrade) from the original 36mp in the D800. Again that is something we would have seen from Nikon or Sony pointing out.

Yes, I think the difference is about as large as that which separated the D3 and D700 sensors. Minor inter-generational tweaks, but nothing big.

like you said 5%-10% improvement in sharpness is fairly minor. but very interesting.

One more thing I was thinking about was if this test result is accurate then we could possibly see this same improvement for all lenses on the D810 vs D800E..
This would be especially interesting for DXO :-) bec they already have test results for lenses on the D800E that are already at the full 36PMP sharpness. so either this test is wrong or DXO will need to show their sharpness results figures at 38PMP sharpness for some lenses on the D810.. which will confuse more people :-)
[Update: I must have been dreaming.. just checked the DXO scores and there is none that is rated at 36PMP :-) ]

One more interesting thought i had was, if this sharpness improvement is true how does this relate to the MTF curves results for the lenses? Obviously the MTF charts are theoretical.. so does that mean that we have been getting at least 10% worse results for the edges than what the MTF charts say? Is this now fully corrected in the D810 so that there can be no more possible improvements of the edge results?

Vipmediastar_JZ

I know I shot this several times with the D800 but I will have to search for a similar photo and by memory I don't think I got this much resolution.
By default the Standard is set to +1 clarity.
In LR I didn't do anything for adjustments other than -exposure and -highlights.

If somebody wants to do the math it is about 442 meters to the top of the Willis tower and I was about .4 miles away from it.



As shot 70-200 2.8 vs at 2.8



About 1:1 Crop in Light Room

Bokeh_Hunter

One more thing I was thinking about was if this test result is accurate then we could possibly see this same improvement for all lenses on the D810 vs D800E..
This would be especially interesting for DXO :-) bec they already have test results for lenses on the D800E that are already at the full 36PMP sharpness. so either this test is wrong or DXO will need to show their sharpness results figures at 38PMP sharpness for some lenses on the D810.. which will confuse more people :-)
[Update: I must have been dreaming.. just checked the DXO scores and there is none that is rated at 36PMP :-) ]

One more interesting thought i had was, if this sharpness improvement is true how does this relate to the MTF curves results for the lenses? Obviously the MTF charts are theoretical.. so does that mean that we have been getting at least 10% worse results for the edges than what the MTF charts say? Is this now fully corrected in the D810 so that there can be no more possible improvements of the edge results?

Actually there is a 36 P-Mpix - Carl Zeiss Apo Sonnar T* 2/135 ZF.2 Nikon. That was a 8 point increase from the D800 to the D800e. I suspect DxO will have some explaining to do - finely.

MTF are not theoretical, they are actual measured results. That being said, I was thinking the same thing. Probably no different than vignetting corrections except for that is a chosen option.

The thing that has always concerned me are the lens tests results that are based on the sensor & camera used. There is a good deal of fraudulence when companies try to rank lenses and the results are dependent on in-camera algorithms and software rather than on the actual lens it's self. We will have three 36mp cameras, that are all within the same major release, with the sensors being the same, but three different sharpness scores on the same lens. If you test a lens and the resolution is the same, the score shouldn't move.

I know some don't believe that is an issue, but I pose this question; What if Nikon starts applying sharpening and corrections automatically (no user selection toggle) only to Nikon products and not to 3rd party lenses. What if they applied sharpness, contrast and clarity to the 58mm 1.4g to make it sharper than the Sigma 50 Art? More deviant yet, what if they just apply the basic algorithm with no tweaks in for 3rd party lenses which will result in them performing worse? That is why you need to decouple or equalize the sensor with lens testing.

Golf007sd

This was brought to our attention: D810 Service Advisory

spraynpray

Nikon REALLY didn't need that.

Are they rushing products to market too fast or something?

Golf007sd

Nikon REALLY didn't need that.
Are they rushing products to market too fast or something?

Agreed, but, issues of this nature do show up. The good things is, Nikon is on top of it and are addressing the matter ASAP as soon as it was brought to their attention. As Admin said, I, too, remember this happened with the D7000; a firmware update fixed it. Lastly, this issue only comes to light with very long exposures times.

I would tend to agree that Nikon has been introducing DSLR bodies more frequently than I have ever known them to be.

PB_PM

This is another one of those, "how did the people testing the camera miss this", moments.