D810, All Discussions, Questions

haroldp

I suppose I could look more on the bright side - extra stars in my night shots..... :P

And also on your day shots

.... H

JonMcGuffin

I'd say unacceptable for me too. Probably not to the point I'd feel I needed to send it in immediately but it's something I'd want to have dealt with. If firmware will indeed "fix" the issue and that just hasn't been made publicly available yet, I'd just wait for it.

I still say this is rather excellent news to have this camera released, be praised so well (generally) in the public forum, and after a guesstimated 6,000 units have landed in photographer's hands this is the best we've all come up with to find fault; Nikon is doing alright. Particularly since they're addressing the issue honestly and so rapidly. Kudo's to Nikon and the people on the ground making that camera a reality.

JJ_SO

Has any of those "unacceptable!" judges a rough number, how much shots with exposure times longer than 20 sec you count in your archives? Mine were 0.008% … I'm really no one who celebrates Nikon every time I'm posting or walk around with a camera, but what you're doing is overhyping and exaggerating. And somehow I don't think any of you will ever get a D810, so no problem anyway

proudgeek

While I also think that it's great the way that Nikon is handling this (as opposed to the D600 oil issue), the cynic in me says they don't really have another option. Unlike dust, which Nikon can push off as user error or a common occurrence with DSLR cameras, white spots on a long exposure isn't something that can be explained away so easy.
As for the portion of my shots with an exposure of over :20 I couldn't tell you. But as someone who does like to dabble in both astrophotography and occasionally shoots with a 10-stop filter, I'd say it's often enough that I would consider it a defect on an otherwise amazing camera that needed to be fixed, particularly a camera that cost north of $3,000. And yes, I do believe I'll be in the market for a D810 eventually, once the beta testers figure out all the issues and once Apple updates the OS to provide RAW support. I think it will pair nicely with my D800.

JonMcGuffin

@proudgeek - I'm confused, you do not own a D810 but your'e having the white dots in your D800?!?

I'm not sure it makes much of a difference if Nikon feels they have to fix it or they just want to. The bottom line is that it's being handled quickly. Nikon seems to come under so much criticism for so many things, much of it justified IMO, but when things go right, I always want to be the kind of person to recognize and verbalize that as well. I think it's just the right and fair way to be.

proudgeek

No, I do not have one but am considering purchasing one as a second body (or as a cohort to my current D800). The white dots I'm referring to were in the image posted. My D800 has no such defect. I'm hardly what one would consider an early adapter. For instance, I didn't purchase my D800 until a year ago.

PB_PM

Has any of those "unacceptable!" judges a rough number, how much shots with exposure times longer than 20 sec you count in your archives?

What difference does it make how often the feature is used? Why accept any kind of defect in a $3499 body? Cheap D3300's don't have that issue, why should someone accept in a camera that costs $3000 more? For that matter, why even bother getting a D800/D800E/D810 at all if you don't care about small detail?

Symphotic

It's really a small issue for me. Anyway, NIKON sent me a UPS label, it went out yesterday, and shows received. I have a job early next week, but I can use a D800.

JJ_SO

Often disappointed by the AF of D800, because it was not there where I wanted, I could call this as well as a defect - but one which is not repairable in post. Missed AF = bin. While the white dots in my tiny experience with the D810 would be repairable in post and don't appear in every LT-shot. I admit, this is time consuming, but it would NOT ruin any otherwise nice shot, it can be fixed. And it will be fixed and I admire Nikon's way to do so this time.

To me that makes the difference between this kind of blown-up "issue" and the others which had to be repaired because those were able to crash much more shots irreparable. Now, shooting astro - on the risk of appearing as a moron: what does it matter getting 20 stars more which in reality only are existing because of the temperature every sensor has to deal with? I'll trade them anytime for the - in my eyes - massive improvements in which are:

- higher resolution, clearer pictures, better contrast
- dynamic range in dark zones and in very bright zones
- accuracy, speed, sensitivity and reliability of AF
- noise of shutter

I was hoping to have my own body this weekend. Not possible, availability is not even known by Nikon CH. So, this nice dealer offered me a second rental for free, with the same camera. I'm hoping I find time to some comparison shots with D800 because I'm curious what does it really better and which of my "advantages" are only felt ones. So far I can tell you, in nearly darkness AF-C 3D was able to track a horse trailer on a small road while it was driving - pretty sure this task would have been too much for good old D800 (and of course the amount of horse trailers in darkness is even lower than my long time exposures…) There were a lot of "just because it can do" shots in the time between 9 and 10 p.m., the dim light is something I have to deal with maybe 30-40%. Some people brought in the money the camera costs - would you be able to produce a 100% failure free product at this price? It doesn't have to be a complex camera… And I'm not looking for the perfect camera because then I could save a lot money - as such thing is nowhere around. Talking about the price to me the failure at best is worth shipping costs one way parcel to Nikon.

However, it's not too bad to wait for it, maybe Apple has a new RAW compatibility update by then and I'll get a body with updated firmware - I'm just afraid, the update could cost resolution and I would hate that. And kudos to those I suspected they are not bothered because they are no upcoming customers for D810.

JJ_SO

What I also like to find out is how much LiveView before the shot comes into play of this effect. I'm suspecting this heats the sensor up and the effect will show up faster. Of course, some night scenes only can be focused with LiveView and waiting until sensor falls back to normal temperature is no help. I'm only interested because here I have the chance to find it out.

Now, please switch for a moment and feel in the clothes of a Nikon engineer. They did a great piece of work, they improved the already high-end D800 at almost every part, gave it the AF of a nearly double as expensive camera, made it faster, less vibrating and so on. It comes out and the celebration of "finding issues" starts. Wouldn't that disappoint you, too? Do we really need the triumph of finding Nano-hairs in a tasty soup? Is that the big encouraging for engineers to go beyond the best?

henrik1963

I am surprised how many come out saying that AF on the D800 is no good. The D810 may be better. But "no good"? (I am not talking about people who had a faulty camera here)

PB_PM

@henrik1963 I don't think the D800's AF is no good, it's just kind of finicky. Perhaps a better word is, unpredictable? I have always considered the AF of the D700 to be more reliable than the D800, in all but low light situations, where the D800's superior -3ev (vs -2ev) AF ability stands out.

spraynpray

@JJ_SO:

You are missing the point somewhat. Without being paranoid, I assume you are referring to me as being one of those who would never get a D810 and to that I say 'never say never'. Maybe a D820 or D830, but I don't know that, so you certainly don't.

We all have different preferences for different genres in photography, I do a fair few night shots and I shoot them for pleasure not to earn money so it is fair and reasonable to say that buying an expensive camera and getting those results would do the opposite of me getting any pleasure out of those shots. Also, other cameras starting at a couple of hundred $ don't exhibit that fault so why accept it from a camera you just paid $3000 for?

No, the point is how long is it until the next random QA failure hits Nikon? D750? Who knows, but after the D610, people thought 'phew - let's hope that is the end of the sorry-assed QA problems with Nikon - turned out it was a period measured in weeks not years or 10's of years.

Your post is aggressive and elitist BTW.

kanuck

Well, I just got back from the Nikon AS center in Seoul. I thought I would have to leave it over the weekend but they took a look at it right away and I just had to wait 25 minutes while they cleaned it, calibrated it and upgraded the firmware to C 1.01 I believe before it was simply C 1.00
L 2.005 L 2.005

I notice it has the black dot inside the tripod sprocket now as nikonrumors.com states as well. All the D810s that ship now will have this black dot inside, which indicates it has been inspected, tested and had its firmware upgraded. Friendly free warranty service and their English was even pretty good as well

Again, I had no issues I just wanted to make sure and the center is so close to my house that's all.

JJ_SO

... Perhaps a better word is, unpredictable?

Thanks, that's the word I was looking for.

@Spraynpray I'm really bored about people blowing every tiny bit up to be a huge dimension, especially if they don't intend to buy a certain product, but no, I hadn't you in mind when I wrote the lines as I know you're a happy DX shooter. Well, mostly happy. I don't care what you think about my post, but be assured, what you think it is, is only your interpretation of it. And not necessarily what I meant to express with it. If you're so afraid about next QA failures, there are more manufacturers than Nikon. Try them and find one always 100% perfect!

People, who of us delivers always 100% perfection? There were serious failures mad eby Nikon (and more by it's management, I think) in the past but each manufacturer has the right to repair them. And if it's happening too often, no customer is forced to stick with this brand. Once again, I like the way Nikon fixes it and if I could buy a D810 today, I wouldn't care if it's already up to date.

EDIT: BTW, Nikon CH already has a note on their website, dated 2014-08-19 in which they explain what's going on and admit the problem. And they also say, the white spots will be reduced after updating firmware - not gone. To get entirely rid of it they recommend using noise reduction ON for LT exposures.

Which means: If I had used NR ON, I hadn't seen the tiny freckles. In my eyes that makes the fault even more tiny although I prefer NR OFF.

spraynpray

@JJ_SO: Reference your edit:

EDIT: BTW, Nikon CH already has a note on their website, dated 2014-08-19 in which they explain what's going on and admit the problem. And they also say, the white spots will be reduced after updating firmware - not gone. To get entirely rid of it they recommend using noise reduction ON for LT exposures.

Which means: If I had used NR ON, I hadn't seen the tiny freckles. In my eyes that makes the fault even more tiny although I prefer NR OFF.

That's so lame! So the $3000 D810 can't do star trails?

cowleystjames

With all the smoke and mirrors on the internet regarding this hot pixel issue, I decided to try mine.
Sigma 50mm F1.4 Art, 30 seconds, Lenr off, ISO 100. Nothing
2 minutes, Lenr off, ISO 100, ah there they are. But hardly noticeable, you really have to pixel peep.
I then decided to try my D4s with exactly the same settings at 30 seconds and 2 minutes. Guess what, almost exactly the same amount of hot pixels.
I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that all digital SLR's exhibit this problem( Not that I'd call it a problem if you have to look that hard)
Reluctantly after talking to the Tech at Nikon in Richmond, London about the fix, I'm taking mine in on Tuesday.
It's not just a firmware update, they're re-calibrating the sensor.
I guess I'm just a sheep that's following the crowd on this one and the fact that if I don't have this fix, the resale value will be affected.

Symphotic

I tried to find the problem, but I don't normally use long exposure times. Even when I tried, I couldn't see any issues at 100%, but maybe I didn't have all the settings right. I wouldn't normally bother with the repair (I never sent my prius in to get the floor mats changed), but Nikon is pretty keen on having them all fixed: If you just check your serial number you automatically get a prepaid shipping label if you need it. So off it went.

Ironheart

Nasim clearly states you have to do some unnatural acts to actually see this:
"Please note that we exaggerated the effect by dialing +50 Clarity and +50 Sharpness in Lightroom"
Read more: http://photographylife.com/nikon-d810-thermal-noise-issue#ixzz3BEHnlVMJ


@CSJ, he also was comparing to D800e, so perhaps the bar has raised from the D4.

Star trailers and astrophotographers would rather have the sensor in all of its hot-pixeled glory and subtract a dark-frame anyway. Basically all any manufacturer does here is to map out the hot pixels in the pre-raw processor, basically throwing a few pixels away. Some cameras even let you do this on your own. The service center is waming up the sensor, and updating the hot-pixel map with their standard maintenance software (which is why the "fix" is already at the service centers). In the plant, they are just being more aggressive with the warm-up, break-in, and hot pixel mapping. I bet the firmware fix is a minor tweek and really just bump of the version code to keep everyone happy.

To back up this assertion, I will wager a pint of your favorite beer that you will never see "C 1.01" firmware in the wild, only from a service center, after they apply the "fix".

IanG

I don't care what you think about my post..

I'm not getting into ANY arguments - everyone here is wonderful and I f*** rose petals - however, I think this statement a little harsh - why on earth write the post if you don't care what people think? I care.

Yeah, I know, you don't care what I think...but it might be nice getting back OP no?

Have a wonderful day - and don't forget your lens cloth :-)

spraynpray

If it really turns out as simple as y'all say, I will be relieved actually.

As problems go (and if it really just turns out to be an adjustment that just wasn't done right during test), it is not too bad as these things go. Interesting though, is that it isn't regarded as a 'real' issue unlike the left side AF issue which was also a bad adjustment during test but WAS regarded as a real issue. In reality of course, they are both issues (if we can put loyalty to one side and look logically) and as such, need to be addressed and not with fixes after the fact, but with a fix that stops issues happening increasingly often.

Personally, I am not put off Nikon yet, but to the twit that made the glib comment about me changing marques wants to personally re-imburse me for the losses I would make, I'll consider it closely having recently handled the 6D.

@JJ_SO: If you are going to not respond to everybody who disagrees with you at some point, you will not be posting so much. I urge you to get a grip, this isn't life or death, it's photography! If you were born in the Gaza strip or Israel, you wouldn't give a s**t about all this!

JJ_SO

...
Sigma 50mm F1.4 Art, 30 seconds, Lenr off, ISO 100. Nothing
2 minutes, Lenr off, ISO 100, ah there they are. But hardly noticeable, you really have to pixel peep.
I then decided to try my D4s with exactly the same settings at 30 seconds and 2 minutes. Guess what, almost exactly the same amount of hot pixels.
I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that all digital SLR's exhibit this problem...

I'm really relieved That was an excellent idea to do, @cowleystjames. I would no go as fas as to state "all DSLRs exhibit this problem" because I don't know them all, but I think you're not far away from truth with it. At least, a couple of exposures at around 30 secs or longer shows the same spots if I pixel peep beyond 100% - be it D800, D7000, D7100, D5100. Mostly in the dim sky (and no, no star trails, at 30 sec the stars are no spots any longer) or in water reflections. I find that interesting. Where have you found the little fellas?

@IanG "...but it might be nice getting back OP no?" great idea. Which is: D810, All Discussions, Questions Are we doing something else? Really? :-??

Mind you, I wasn't talking about Gaza, just the fact of exaggerating tremendously an as good as fixed little bug in hardware and talking a soft breeze up to a hurricane, complaining and concluding and judging… well, you get the picture. And if not, it's not the end of the world

snakebunk

Do you change from one to many focus points in the same cumbersome way as on the D800?

JJ_SO

Yes. Additionally, you have another chance to get in trouble by a setting which makes focus points behave differently in portrait or landscape. Meaning: if you move a single point to the right in landscape orientation, you can adjust the camera to keep it on the right side when you turn it into portrait orientation.

Basically a good idea but the way Nikon did it, is, hmmmm, "cumbersome" was your word? Something like that.

snakebunk

That's a pity. Otherwise the D810 looks like a really nice upgrade.