Nikon D4x

paulr

Sevencrossing Blimey 1966, I remember that Year, It was the only time England won the World Football Cup. )
Sorry off Subject.

sevencrossing

, I remember that Year, It was the only time England won the World Football Cup. )


By the time we win it again, the D400, D4x, D4s, D5, D900, D810, will all be collectors items

Sorry totally off Subject

Msmoto

Re: off topic....we old folks can do that....my first Nikon F was mid 60's as well.

I tend to agree about the D800 makes a D4x seem less useful than when the D1, D2 crop sensor bodies were the paparazzi cameras....and more Mp was wanted, albeit at high cost. I cannot think what a D4x would do better than the D4..... Practically thinking.

paulr

Pure Speculation, Maybe they will put a switch on it that enables you to use the full advantage of the huge megapixels and then flick the switch so that it would operate like a D4 ie Lowlight and perhaps 20FPS.
Can't see that happening when Nikon could sell two cameras instead of one.

donaldejose

If the D4x is produced it won't be a "practical" camera. It will be Nikon's "halo" camera with more megapixels (like 48 or 50) than any other camera. Who will want it? Those who want "the best." Who will need it? Those who need medium format for whatever reason they think they need a larger sensor with more megapixels. Will it offer a practical advantage to folks like wildlife photographers? The ability to crop for extra reach could be helpful if the lens can actually use all the megapixels. If testing shows that current pro lenses actually do resolve sufficiently to take advantage of 48 megapixels on a sensor a lot of photographers will be interested because the additional detail in the image allows for more cropping choices and for larger enlargement quality. If it really works well photographers will find plenty of uses for it.

kyoshinikon

What would probably make a D4x a unanimous success is if it shot Prophoto colorspace at 48mpx . that alone would put it above the D800 in terms of price.

How does a pro lenses resolve on the D7100? that would probably answer how poorly the resolve power of a fx 48mpx sensor would be on a pro lens...

PB_PM

People made the same arguments with the D3x and the D800 came out. "Oh, who needs that many megapixels?" "Oh the lenses aren't good enough." Blah, blah, blah. Now I'm sure more people have purchased the D800 than the D3x, but that's not the point. As donaldejose said, it's not about sales numbers, it's about prestige. Canon is rumored to be making a 1DX model with 40+ MP, so Nikon will follow, simply to stay on top, if nothing else.

kenadams

Tell me if I'm wrong, but aren't we only now reaching the resolution on digital sensors that film can deliver if properly digitized? Also, I remember reading a review on Thom Hogans website recently about the then new D80, which had 10MP, and on how this kind of high resolution would start to be a challenge for lenses. I really don't get this argument about sensors out-resolving lenses.

donaldejose

PitchBlack: A D4 at 6fps and 36mp should be easy and quite cheap (like $200 or $300 more than a D4). The sensor in the D800 should not cost much more than the sensor in the D4. The EXPEED 4 processor should not cost more than the EXPEED 3 processor and be able to process 36 mp at 6 fps. Some more RAM memory should not cost much more. Now that EXPEED 4 is available, Nikon could very easily create such a D4 variation which would be a very good value. Nikon could also put the 24mp D600 sensor in a D4 and pair it with the EXPEED 4 processor to produce a D4 which shoots 24mp at 8 fps. Might as well use what already exists to create inexpensive variations.

SquamishPhoto

Again, could never means that they will, no matter how much sense it makes in your head. :]

sevencrossing

PitchBlack I have gotten REALLY used to 36mp. It's crazy addictive to have that kind of sharpness and be able to crop the hell out of anything in post. It's liberating. I'd take a D4 @ 6fps with 36mp and a built-in grip. I'd probably buy that.

+1

I don't think we are going to see a third Pro DSLR in the Nikon range

I think we will see a D810 or D900, that ( with a Battery pack) will give 36 mp and 6 to 8 fps

That would keep the range to two.

( I am counting the D800 and D800E as one)

sevencrossing

PitchBlack
The reason why the D4 is low on the MP count is the processor requirements.
I think it also allows ISO 12,800

PB_PM

The way the 1Dx shoots at a higher frame rate with more megapixels (14fps @ 18.1mp = 253mp/second) is because it has three processors in it.

And it can only do that when the mirror is locked up and AF is disabled.

donaldejose

PitchBlack: Sure, but I am suggesting the EXPEED 4 processor will be faster than the current EXPEED 3 processor in the D4. Thus, the processing limit of the D4 will not limit a D4x. A 33% gain is not unrealistic. NR is saying a version of EXPEED 4 is going into the D5300. Surely, Nikon will then be putting versions of EXPEED 4 in all new bodies which will appear (with the exception of the D610 which may be just a D600 with a different shutter).

SquamishPhoto: Sure, I never say will. I say can or could. Just ideas, no one knows what Nikon will do or the reason they will do it. However, their profits have been dropping and they must be looking for ways to sell more product. A product which costs them almost nothing to develop and yet can be labeled as an additional camera body should be attractive if they feel it will sell in sufficient quantity. Now that Nikon is firmly into medium format megapixel range I am suggesting a new product line for them: the p line for portraiture. If a D800 sensor, or any high megapixel sensor, can be optimized for skin tones (at the loss of some high ISO) the way many people say medium format sensors are, Nikon could produce a D800p and D4xp containing such a sensor and try to take some market share away from medium format portrait cameras. Perhaps such an optimization can be done in software rather than requiring any physical changes to the sensor. By the way, I have seen some comparisons between D800 portraits and medium format portraits which do show the medium formats ability to better distinguish between slight changes in skin tones so I do believe that difference exists. Whether or not it can be created in a high megapixel FX sensor I don't know.

Ade

Let's not get too carried away with the processor speed benchmarks.

The revised EXPEED present in newer Nikon 1 cameras can already push 850 megapixels per second. So the processor itself is not necessarily the bottleneck; the entire image chain has to be considered.

PB_PM

@Ade Right on the money. You have to consider in camera processing, beyond the processor itself. Things like the AD converter, the buffer, in camera processing (yes even RAW files have this!). So sure the EXPEED 3 may be able to push 850 MP per second, but can the rest of the system keep up? Even more than that, can the memory cards keep up? What are the max write speeds on current SDHC/CF/XQD again? Less than 200mbps right? With that being the case, there is no way you could write the data fast enough, even though the camera could, in theory, push the data out.

Ade

Yes, in Nikon 1 cameras the sensor interface is digital instead of analog (in other words, the ADC is already built-into the sensor). It's one of the reason the image chain can be so fast. One advantage of new EXPEED generations, beyond pure speed, is the ability to work with new sensor types.

Flash speed ratings are in MB/s so they're quite a bit faster than above (but still relatively slow). 166 MB/s == 1328 mbps. Of course the slow speed can be mitigated in part by having a generous amount of buffer memory.

sevencrossing

Canon is rumored to be making a 1DX model with 40+ MP, so Nikon will follow, simply to stay on top, if nothing else.

If Nikon are just going to look over their shoulder , then Msmoto will be right and Nikon will go the way of Kodak
but I don't think Nikon are going to do that; expect the next D* to be a revolutionary camera, to try and make Canon users jump ship

Golf007sd

Some things I would like to add given some of the responses above:

+1 @PitchBlack. The addition of multiple processor within the next D4x (or whatever Nikon calls it) is the path Nikon will take.

As for the body itself, l did not purchase my D4 because I wanted massive amounts of MP...I purchased it for its fast FPS, high ISO performance, added features like built-in vertical grip, LAN, new memory tech (XQD) and built quality. Thus, for those of us that purchased such a body (be it D4 or those that have Canon equivalent) we have other specific feature/needs/wants in mind.

But should Nikon offer such a body with such high MP, which ultimately will require larger storage device and write speeds, then you will now see the logic behind their implementation of the XQD memory slot. Quote: "XQD will be able to exceed 2 terabytes capacity eventually, according to the the CompactFlash Association, which developed the format. Second-and third-generation versions of PCIe double and quadruple transfer speeds to 250MBps and 500MBps. The initial cards use the first-generation interface, but PCIe provides for backward compatibility so that newer devices will be able to use older XQD cards."

The question that crosses my mind is this: will owners of current D4's...like myself, buy such a body knowing full well what the D800/D800e currently has to offer. If high MP is what I'm after....

In closing, should I see something that Canon ever offers that attracts me so much that I would want to buy it, I assure of this, I would Never sell any of my Nikon gear for it, I would just be adding to my current photography gear.

PB_PM

If Nikon are just going to look over their shoulder...

It's not about looking over their shoulder, it's about staying on top. Nikon let Canon hold the MP title for many years, I doubt they would be eager to hand it back at this point.

Elvishefer

Guys, check out Thom Hogan's article comparing Nikon and Canon processors...

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/milbeaut-and-expeed.html

"Choice of underlying chip has ramifications on what can and can't be done down the line. For example, Canon's DIGIC can be used in multiples and can execute out of internal memory, which is one reason why you see multi-DIGIC cameras at the high performance end and we have software like Magic Lantern that can execute off an SD card for Canon products. Milbeaut, unfortunately, can't be used in multiples and executes internally. "

Wouldn't that mean a multi-processor Nikon isn't possible (unless they change chips entirely)?

Other than the reasons listed above for Nikon making a D4x, you are all forgetting the number one reason it should make one is that I want one.

/shakesfist

Ade

Thom glossed over some of the intricacies, perhaps not to muddy the issue.

EXPEED is a multi-core design, i.e., one physical EXPEED chip can have two processing cores in it.

DIGIC is a single-core design. So they need two physical chips to have two processing cores.

There are pros and cons to either approach.

Beso

@Ade - very much appreciate you sharing your considerable technical knowledge with us. I find your comments both informational and educational.

SquamishPhoto

I second that, Beso. Its nice to have someone who backs up their statements and helps to clarify more than he confuses.

tc88

Thom glossed over some of the intricacies, perhaps not to muddy the issue.

EXPEED is a multi-core design, i.e., one physical EXPEED chip can have two processing cores in it.

DIGIC is a single-core design. So they need two physical chips to have two processing cores.

There are pros and cons to either approach.

There is a huge difference in flexibility when the volumn is small. In a multi chip design, the next time you design a new board (camera), you can always add more chips if you choose.

However, in a multi core design, you have to make a different chip if you want a different number of cores. The one time cost to make a new chip is prohibitive if the volumn is only something like 10k. Companies like Intel make chips with different number of cores. But they make hundreds of millions of chips. I seriously doubt Nikon is going to have different EXPEED designs. Most likely they just bin those so that the best performing chips go into the high end cameras, or purposely slow down the chips used in lower level cameras.