Death of F-mount DX Challenge

spraynpray

It is incredible how the manufacturers keep us hooked in isnt it!

donaldejose

My prediction. WEF will never have to pay up. DX will not die during our lifetimes.

mhedges

Challenge is F mount DX not DX altogether. So he will certainly have to pay up considering Nikon crop sensor DSLR is in hospice.

NSXTypeR

mhedges said:

Yes I'm surprised at how much interest there still is in crop sensor. Especially given how there are now FF options available new for not much more money. And with the very limited number of dedicated crop sensor lenses out there folks will almost certainly wind up using some FF lenses anyway.

Wonder if this challenge is still on. Haven't seen WEF around here lately.

It's just another tool to use. I'm used to shooting with F-mount DX and I liked using the 70-300 and the 105mm macro with it so I am already used to the field of view and the extra reach with the crop factor. Hence I'm curious to see if there's a higher end Z mount DX camera in the works. I just wish Nikon would stop purposefully hobbling DX Z mount cameras as an excuse to drive customers towards higher end and more capable FX Z mount cameras.

spraynpray

I don't know how many different sensor sizes there are out there (but it isn't just DX & FX), yet DX has always been discussed as if it is the poor cousin on NR whereas for some uses I find it superior to FX and due to the fact that I rarely shoot differential focus shots, I rarely found myself at a disadvantage using DX (with the exception of extreme low light shots).

As NSXTypeR said above: "It's just another tool to use".

OK, it isn't always the most convenient way, but I always shot FX glass by choice due to using the sweet-spot and getting better results.

Long Live DX!

Pistnbroke

Well I have given up on Z ...too expensive for my now limited use and just use a couple of D7200 with pair of Tamron 100-400 and I am getting the best bird photos I ever had ...Dumped the Z850 and replaced it with a D810/14mm samyang ..again limited use.

Capt_Spaulding

For me, it’s a “different horses for different courses” decision. Low light and landscapes call for the D750. Wildlife and fast(er) action have me reaching for the D7200. 24MP is my sweet spot for resolution so a 24MP DX (often with a medium to long (FX) lens) paired with a 24MP FX using a medium to wide hits most of the bases.

The exception is panoramas. The D750 with a 70-200 f4 in portrait mode is my preference for those. Right now, I’m laid up nursing a broken hip, and in all honesty, it’s too hot to spend much time outside. Hopefully, the fall should see progress on all fronts.

spraynpray

Get well soon Capt!

NSXTypeR

Yes, wish you a speedy recovery!

Capt_Spaulding

Thanks Amigos.

photobunny

I think DX will become more popular very soon with the Z90 being rumoured for early 2023 with a stacked DX sensor. It'll very much be one of the only accessible stacked sensors for most people for the better part of a decade and I think we are about to see something really special to replace the D500. As with before, DX will help bring the prices of FX down as they perfect the higher volume products new tech.

donaldejose

I hope you are correct. If Nikon makes no more 24mp sensors so their DX sensors go to 33 mp the DX cost/use advantage of DX over FX will keep getting better and better unless a person wants to shoot in very low light or with a very shallow depth of field. When it comes to printing a photo shot at f5.6 or f8, for example, a 33 mp DX sensor should produce the same print as does a 33 mp FX sensor as long as the photosites were filled with the same amount of photons. Megapixels are megapixels and should all be equal in printing when each photosite captures the same amount of photons. since the DX pixels are smaller you may need to give them up to a stop more light by opening up your aperture one stop or by cutting your shutter speed in half or if shooting in studio with off camera flash by just doubling your flash power. Testing with different sensors will probably show this difference to be less than one stop to achieve equal saturation of the sensor photosites. When you are shooting in sufficient light on a body with image stabilization this should not be a problem most of the time. Using equivalent for the sensor size mm lenses I would expect that a 33 mp DX body shot with a 35mm lens at 1/250th sec and f5.6 would print the same as a 33 mp FX body shot with a 50mm lens at 1/250th sec and about f6.3 or shot at f5.6 and about 1/60th of a second. Modern digital cameras with IBIS should be easily able to produce equal prints from DX and FX sensors most of the time. F1.2 bokeh is a passing fad. The subjects/customers are going to look at the people not at the background blur.

photobunny

donaldejose said:

F1.2 bokeh is a passing fad. The subjects/customers are going to look at the people not at the background blur.

Every time I have made a portrait it has looked its best at f/5.6 or even f/8 higher. The ultra shallow DOF looks lovely, but people are more impressed by seeing all the pores in focus and having their eyebrows, eyes, nose, and ears in focus.

donaldejose

I have heard well-known studio portrait photographers say they routinely shoot at even f11 or f16 to make sure they don't miss focus if a subject is moving. I find that even with a still portrait subject f4 is often as open as I go to make sure both eyes remain in reasonable focus no matter the angle of the face. My female subjects don't want to see skin defects or pores but they like sharp eyes. Even an f1.8 lens shot wide open is often too shallow a DOF if you are trying to achieve sharp focus on both eyes, both eyelashes and both eyebrows. I would think an f0.95 and an f1.2 lens would be almost useless wide open unless you were shooting full body portraits where you would be far enough away for the lens to give you a reasonable DOF. Yet, some Canon photographers love their 85mm f1.2 lens. For example, look at these youtube videos. Tim Kelly uses f10 (and 70-200 zoom) or so while Irene Rudynik uses f1.2 (and 85mm prime) or so. I like how Tim Kelly's method keeps the background constant by not changing his f-stop. All he has to do is make changes to his key and fill lights. On the other hand Irene's f1.2 technique works well. She is not shooting headshots. She is shooting full or 3/4th body shots so she has more depth of field on the face at that distance. She is also often shooting outside with the subject's face in the shadow so she is making bokeh out of nature while Tim Kelly has the bokeh painted in his backdrops.

donaldejose

Irene does lovely work at f1.2, even shooting into the sun.

mhedges

Yes that's the use case for 1.2 - full body or maybe waist up portraits. When people use it for tighter shots it looks weird.

NSXTypeR

Well it happened.

All of F-mount lenses are out of production now.

So F-mount died in 2024.

https://nikonrumors.com/2024/01/24/all-nikon-f-mount-products-are-out-of-production.aspx/

I'd assume you'd be able to find new old stock stuff for a while. Maybe I should pick up a D780 haha.

WestEndFoto

NSXTypeR said:

Well it happened.

All of F-mount lenses are out of production now.

So F-mount died in 2024.

https://nikonrumors.com/2024/01/24/all-nikon-f-mount-products-are-out-of-production.aspx/

I'd assume you'd be able to find new old stock stuff for a while. Maybe I should pick up a D780 haha.

The D7500 is still on the Nikon.ca website. And now is a good time to remind everyone that I am talking about F-mount DX. If Z-mount DX is all that is left, then DX under that definition is dead. I will admit that I didn't anticipate the new mount and might have tweaked the rules if I had known, but those were the terms.

snakebunk

@WestEndFoto: What was your point with this thread? I thought it was about crop sensors but now it seems to be about F-mount. I don't mind, just wondering.

WestEndFoto

snakebunk said:

@WestEndFoto: What was your point with this thread? I thought it was about crop sensors but now it seems to be about F-mount. I don't mind, just wondering.

My point was, if you go all the way back to the beginning, was to forecast my belief that Nikon was not going to continue with cropped sensors and that Nikon would go full frame.

And then a few emails ensured and I had to get specific on the rules and definitions. So it became that Nikon would not continue with cropped sensors in the F-mount. That was back in 2015 when we had no idea about the Z-mount. But I must admit, my thinking was that Nikon might have cropped sensors, specifically DX sized, in a different DX mount, but not in F-mount. I did not anticipate a whole new FULL FRAME mount. However, that is how the rules were set. We can't change them based on hindsight.

I would like to note some other things. Back then, I believed that sensors would become so cheap that there would be no material cost savings of DX over FX and therefore no need for DX. My presumption was that resolution was what would distinguish different sensors.

If my "resolution" belief held true, I think that my prediction about DX would have come to pass despite the Z-mount. Imagine how cheap the FSI sensors in the Z5, D810, etc. would be to produce if they were produced in volume today. I am sure that there would be numerous full frame FSI sensor cameras available for $1,000. What I did not anticipate was that the desire for better video and autofocus would drive another factor in sensor design, speed. So here we go, sensors are expensive again and there is a business case for DX in the Z-mount - but not the F-mount.

I actually belief that the cost benefit of cropped sensors will eventually diminish to the point of the business case vanishing. How fast does the autofocus on an entry level camera really need to be? If you are partaking in the type of photography that requires ultrafast af, then you will need to pay a premium. And I suspect that the current stacked sensor will be fairly cheap by the beginning of the next decade.

But I could be wrong............

NSXTypeR

I mean if all F mount lens production is over, F mount DX is effectively dead even if the D7500 is still being sold. There hasn't been an update to any F mount DX or FX cameras since the D6, D780 and D500.

WestEndFoto

NSXTypeR said:

I mean if all F mount lens production is over, F mount DX is effectively dead even if the D7500 is still being sold. There hasn't been an update to any F mount DX or FX cameras since the D6, D780 and D500.

Yes, but I have to stick to the rules. Or else I open pandora's box.

snakebunk

@WestEndFoto: Thank you. I also thought that full frame would be inexpensive and that there would be no need for crop sensors. Also there is no longer a crop sensor advantage when it comes to pixel density, i.e. the reach argument is gone.