Nikon Z5

CaMeRaQuEsT

I'm actually very interested in this upcoming camera. The rumors of it rocking dual SD UHS-II card slots is what makes it most interesting to me: I don't want to spend money buying expensive XQD or CFexpress cards as I don't have the need for the additional speed, I'll rather spend that money on Z lenses. I do hope that it pack yet another update to the Z AF system, with class beating capabilities, and that it will soon be priced competitively against the Canon RP and Sony A7II.

photobunny

I would prefer dual CF Express slots. UHS-II SD cards are very expensive and it gets worse when you compare them on speed as well against the CF Express cards.

Sandisk CF Express Extreme Pro 128GB 1700MB/s Read Speed, 1200MB/s Write Speed @ £259 vs Sandisk Extreme Pro 128GB SDHC Card 280MB/s UHS-II Class 10 U3 @ £271.00

Of course if you are using type 1 cards, CFE can't compete with something so prolific. But UHS-II SD vs CFExpress is a no brainer in the favour of CFExpress and that is without taking into account that the CFExpress cards (will not proven for years yet) do report in as more durable.

spraynpray

Yes, I just looked at micro SD for my drone and something that will keep up with 8k video is very expensive.

PB_PM

photobunny said:

I would prefer dual CF Express slots. UHS-II SD cards are very expensive and it gets worse when you compare them on speed as well against the CF Express cards.

Sandisk CF Express Extreme Pro 128GB 1700MB/s Read Speed, 1200MB/s Write Speed @ £259 vs Sandisk Extreme Pro 128GB SDHC Card 280MB/s UHS-II Class 10 U3 @ £271.00

Of course if you are using type 1 cards, CFE can't compete with something so prolific. But UHS-II SD vs CFExpress is a no brainer in the favour of CFExpress and that is without taking into account that the CFExpress cards (will not proven for years yet) do report in as more durable.

The nice thing about SD is that it is available in small capacities. CF Express starts at 64GB, I for one have no need for a card that size. That’s why I won’t buy a Z6 for example, since it need expensive massively large XQD/CFE cards, when all I need is the 90MBs 32GB SD card, that I already have that gets plenty of shots in my D750. I’m not shooting for a company, I don’t need to download 1000 shots in 5s, so CFE is a waste of money.

CaMeRaQuEsT

That's why having SD card slots is a much better proposition to amateurs like me who want to go mirrorless and are coming from a D7*00, D6*0, or D750: I already have an investment in SD cards that have basically no resale value at this point, and as I noted in my OP, I have no need for the additional speed of the new form factor cards, as even the slowest SD cards that I own are already capable of recording 4K at the bitrates that Nikon do, plus I almost never do long bursts at CH.

On a side, I will also give kudos to Nikon if they indeed maintain an EN-EL15 battery slot, as I am also invested in those and do not want to buy new EN-EL25 batteries (the ones the Z50 uses) that have less capacity.

WestEndFoto

CaMeRaQuEsT said:

That's why having SD card slots is a much better proposition to amateurs like me who want to go mirrorless and are coming from a D7*00, D6*0, or D750: I already have an investment in SD cards that have basically no resale value at this point, and as I noted in my OP, I have no need for the additional speed of the new form factor cards, as even the slowest SD cards that I own are already capable of recording 4K at the bitrates that Nikon do, plus I almost never do long bursts at CH.

On a side, I will also give kudos to Nikon if they indeed maintain an EN-EL15 battery slot, as I am also invested in those and do not want to buy new EN-EL25 batteries (the ones the Z50 uses) that have less capacity.

Eventually things need to change though. At what point does that happen? When 8k at 60hz is available on entry level cameras?

CaMeRaQuEsT

WestEndFoto said:

Eventually things need to change though. At what point does that happen? When 8k at 60hz is available on entry level cameras?

I don't yet own a 4K screen. The SD cards I currently use are more than 6 years old and are still going strong. Why would I want to waste my money replacing things that are still working perfectly but at this point have no resale value?

Besides, faster SD standards have been coming up periodically, keeping the form factor up to speed with its competitors, and since it's the most widely used physical card format, it will remain the most cost-effective one for the foreseeable future. I am sure that when 8K60p becomes available in entry-level cameras there will be plenty of inexpensive SD cards available that will be able to record its throughput. In fact, the Samsung Galaxy S20 already does 8K24p with microSD UHS-III cards. You have to also consider that 8K comes with more efficiency codecs, so it's not like it has to be 16x the bitrate of a 1080p feed. SD will remain the consumer-friendly format for years to come. XQD never took off, its physical format staying alive only thanks to CFexpress rescuing it, and CF will be pretty much limited to high end applications.

tc88

WestEndFoto said:

Eventually things need to change though. At what point does that happen? When 8k at 60hz is available on entry level cameras?

Only when the supporting cards are cheap enough will 8k become popular.

WestEndFoto

CaMeRaQuEsT said:

WestEndFoto said:

Eventually things need to change though. At what point does that happen? When 8k at 60hz is available on entry level cameras?

I don't yet own a 4K screen. The SD cards I currently use are more than 6 years old and are still going strong. Why would I want to waste my money replacing things that are still working perfectly but at this point have no resale value?

Besides, faster SD standards have been coming up periodically, keeping the form factor up to speed with its competitors, and since it's the most widely used physical card format, it will remain the most cost-effective one for the foreseeable future. I am sure that when 8K60p becomes available in entry-level cameras there will be plenty of inexpensive SD cards available that will be able to record its throughput. In fact, the Samsung Galaxy S20 already does 8K24p with microSD UHS-III cards. You have to also consider that 8K comes with more efficiency codecs, so it's not like it has to be 16x the bitrate of a 1080p feed. SD will remain the consumer-friendly format for years to come. XQD never took off, its physical format staying alive only thanks to CFexpress rescuing it, and CF will be pretty much limited to high end applications.

Because there will come a point that Nikon will hinder sales significantly if CF Express is not offered. That is occurring right now at the top end. How many Compact Flash D5s did Nikon sell compared to XQD? It is only a matter of time before that occurs at the entry level.

If you want an SD card to match its competitors (XQD and CFExpress) you need to spend as much money for a quarter of the speed performance. A quick review of B&H will demonstrate that. The fastest write speed of any SDXC that you can buy from B&H is about 250 MB/s. For the exact same price you can buy a CF Express that is six times faster.

The ONLY use case that I can think of for SD over CF Express is when write performance is practically irrelevant. That will be fine for some entry level photographers that are fine with 25MP/s but people that care about write speed will also buy entry level cameras. Nikon will lose those sales if it doesn't cater to them. It will be more profitably for Nikon to make you pay for your cards as opposed to losing the sales of people that care about write speed to Sony and Canon.

tc88

@WestEndFoto, first what you say only applies to the top end cameras. But in that space, 2 card slots also matter as much as card speed. The point is that if Z7/6/5 have XQD or not, not many users care. In fact, I would say the majority will avoid Z7/6 because of XQD, in terms of both price and compatibility with other devices.

Second, Sony A9 only uses SD UHS2 slots and are doing quite well. Canon 1dx2 still only uses CompactFlash and cfast. I don't know if Nikon's D5 is selling well or not compared to other brands. But if not, it won't be due to the card speed.

PB_PM

WestEndFoto said:

Eventually things need to change though. At what point does that happen? When 8k at 60hz is available on entry level cameras?

For the high end sure, things need to change. Of course there is also the consideration that Nikon is putting buyers, like some of us here, off by pushing these new, high priced cards. I sure won't spend over $100 on a camera memory card, got other things that I need to buy, not just thing I want for a hobby tool.

photobunny

tc88 said:

@WestEndFoto, first what you say only applies to the top end cameras. But in that space, 2 card slots also matter as much as card speed. The point is that if Z7/6/5 have XQD or not, not many users care. In fact, I would say the majority will avoid Z7/6 because of XQD, in terms of both price and compatibility with other devices.

Second, Sony A9 only uses SD UHS2 slots and are doing quite well. Canon 1dx2 still only uses CompactFlash and cfast. I don't know if Nikon's D5 is selling well or not compared to other brands. But if not, it won't be due to the card speed.

The Sony A9 slows down to a crawl and refuses to take another picture when the buffer is full so it has to write to those slow SD cards.

The Canon 1DX Mark II CFast 2 slot is comparable with XQD in speed.

The Canon 1DX Mark III has CFExpress and almost unlimited buffer due to it.

Pistnbroke

This whole camera seems strange to me . How does it fit with the Z6?
Same MP Same AF system Dual slots of any sort is good but no top screen and a very low res rear screen. Unless its going to be very cheap I dont get it . ( and I wont buy it )

WestEndFoto

photobunny said:

tc88 said:

@WestEndFoto, first what you say only applies to the top end cameras. But in that space, 2 card slots also matter as much as card speed. The point is that if Z7/6/5 have XQD or not, not many users care. In fact, I would say the majority will avoid Z7/6 because of XQD, in terms of both price and compatibility with other devices.

Second, Sony A9 only uses SD UHS2 slots and are doing quite well. Canon 1dx2 still only uses CompactFlash and cfast. I don't know if Nikon's D5 is selling well or not compared to other brands. But if not, it won't be due to the card speed.

The Sony A9 slows down to a crawl and refuses to take another picture when the buffer is full so it has to write to those slow SD cards.

The Canon 1DX Mark II CFast 2 slot is comparable with XQD in speed.

The Canon 1DX Mark III has CFExpress and almost unlimited buffer due to it.

Exactly. Eventually CFExpress will have a high and a low end - which is the current high end in six years. Low end CFExpress will be faster than high end SD and then why would Nikon, Canon or Sony make any camera that relied on that. SD is not dead, but it won't be relevant in six years.

WestEndFoto

Pistnbroke said:

This whole camera seems strange to me . How does it fit with the Z6?
Same MP Same AF system Dual slots of any sort is good but no top screen and a very low res rear screen. Unless its going to be very cheap I dont get it . ( and I wont buy it )

I actually expected the Z5 to be a Z50 with a full frame sensor. I would buy that not because it is cheap, but because it is FF in a small package. The Z5 described on the blog is not that camera. If the Z5 is roughly same size as a Z6, I would just wait for a Z7 MK II and buy that as a weekend walk around (I want FF in a smaller package as my weekday walkaround).

We still may get a Z50 with a FF sensor. The rumours might be wrong or maybe that is going to be a Z4. Either way, the camera that fits my use case is not made yet.

tc88

photobunny said:

The Sony A9 slows down to a crawl and refuses to take another picture when the buffer is full so it has to write to those slow SD cards.

From my understanding, sony a9 has a huge buffer, I don't know how often people really uses it up. I'm not sure having SD cards really impacted its sale. I would even make an argument that substantial amount of people prefer huge buffer with SD than small buffer with XQD. Certainly Sony didn't see a need to change that on a9ii.

WestEndFoto said:

Eventually CFExpress will have a high and a low end - which is the current high end in six years.

That may very well the be case. But you would have said the same thing about XQD 6 years ago and did that pan out? The only determining factor is whether it will be cheap enough. If not, forget its chance to take hold.

tc88

Pistnbroke said:

This whole camera seems strange to me . How does it fit with the Z6?

I think Z6 will be on clearance soon. There is no place for Z6 once Z5 is released.

WestEndFoto

tc88 said:

photobunny said:

The Sony A9 slows down to a crawl and refuses to take another picture when the buffer is full so it has to write to those slow SD cards.

From my understanding, sony a9 has a huge buffer, I don't know how often people really uses it up. I'm not sure having SD cards really impacted its sale. I would even make an argument that substantial amount of people prefer huge buffer with SD than small buffer with XQD. Certainly Sony didn't see a need to change that on a9ii.

WestEndFoto said:

Eventually CFExpress will have a high and a low end - which is the current high end in six years.

That may very well the be case. But you would have said the same thing about XQD 6 years ago and did that pan out? The only determining factor is whether it will be cheap enough. If not, forget its chance to take hold.

Yes, it did pan out. My XQD cards will work fine in upcoming CFExpress cameras.

WestEndFoto

tc88 said:

Pistnbroke said:

This whole camera seems strange to me . How does it fit with the Z6?

I think Z6 will be on clearance soon. There is no place for Z6 once Z5 is released.

I have been thinking about this. I am assuming that the new information in the rumour is true. I am now hypothesizing that Nikon is going to upgrade the Z6/7 line a few notches to actually appeal to D780/D850 users. Specifically, their goal will be to make the Z7 Mk II as good or a little better than a D850 instead of not quite a D850. They will do the same with a Z6 Mk II.

I have been thinking that the Z8/9 is going to be the same body but "as good as a D6". The Z8 will be like a D3x and the Z9 will be like a D3s. I have been thinking for quite a while that they would do this, but these will be expensive cameras that will leave a gap between the Z6/7 and Z8/9 - unless they upgrade the Z6/7.

If the new information is not true and the Z5 is a Z50 with a ff sensor, then I have a different hypothesis.

We will see in due course.

tc88

WestEndFoto said:

tc88 said:

WestEndFoto said:

Eventually CFExpress will have a high and a low end - which is the current high end in six years.

That may very well the be case. But you would have said the same thing about XQD 6 years ago and did that pan out? The only determining factor is whether it will be cheap enough. If not, forget its chance to take hold.

Yes, it did pan out. My XQD cards will work fine in upcoming CFExpress cameras.

The original point you were making is that the card will also expand to cover low end. Did XQD ever become affordable and appear in low end? Of course not, that's why it's dying.

BTW, no, your XQD won't work in upcoming CFE cameras, only the Nikon, (even that is a big IF). That's a big qualifier, and probably limited to only the immediate next version too. But that's irrelevant anyway to your original point of a high end technology will always migrate to the low end.

tc88

Of course assuming the rumor is true, Z6 is dead and there won't be a mark2 and Z7 is half dead.

Because there will be Z8, and Z9. Also if there is an even lower end without EVF, though I feel it's highly unlikely at this stage. I think Nikon will only carry 3 FF Z models, at most 4.

WestEndFoto

tc88 said:

WestEndFoto said:

tc88 said:

WestEndFoto said:

Eventually CFExpress will have a high and a low end - which is the current high end in six years.

That may very well the be case. But you would have said the same thing about XQD 6 years ago and did that pan out? The only determining factor is whether it will be cheap enough. If not, forget its chance to take hold.

Yes, it did pan out. My XQD cards will work fine in upcoming CFExpress cameras.

The original point you were making is that the card will also expand to cover low end. Did XQD ever become affordable and appear in low end? Of course not, that's why it's dying.

BTW, no, your XQD won't work in upcoming CFE cameras, only the Nikon, (even that is a big IF). That's a big qualifier, and probably limited to only the immediate next version too. But that's irrelevant anyway to your original point of a high end technology will always migrate to the low end.

OK, we will continue to disagree on this point.

WestEndFoto

tc88 said:

Of course assuming the rumor is true, Z6 is dead and there won't be a mark2 and Z7 is half dead.

Because there will be Z8, and Z9. Also if there is an even lower end without EVF, though I feel it's highly unlikely at this stage. I think Nikon will only carry 3 FF Z models, at most 4.

Nikon is getting itself into a real product management pickle if they adopt the numbering system that you are suggesting.

donaldejose

Nikon has 4 DSLR FF bodies and 4 DSLR crop sensor bodies. Apparently, Nikon feels 4 is the proper feature and price point spread to cover the market. I would assume Nikon will feel the same about mirrorless bodies and will create four Z single digit bodies and four Z double digit bodies. Thus, WEF is correct. There will be a Z5 with iterations, a Z6 with iterations, a Z7 with iterations and a top end Z8or9 with iterations. I hope the top end Z body comes with a built in vertical grip and in a choice of sensors like the old D3, D3x, and D3s did. That would be nice. Let me suggest that if Nikon wants to migrate to mirrorless over time it will have to produce a top end Z body like the D single digit top end DSLR body today. I remember one Nikon executive being quoted not long ago as saying they would produce a mirrorless body equivalent to the D4. Hopefully, he meant to say it will be equivalent to the latest D single digit body at the time of its announcement. I am with WestEndFoto on this. My prediction for the Z5 is that it will be able to do everything I need because it will have the AF and high ISO and IQ at base ISO of the Z6. All that and only about $1,000. What is not to love?

CaMeRaQuEsT

The Z6 pricing conundrum is a tough one for Nikon to solve. Even if Nikon improves the AF firmware, what I believe is currently its only real chink in the armor that Nikon just can't spin in its favor, to a point where there is absolutely no doubt that neither Sony's or Canon's can beat it in any shooting situation, it will still be hard for Nikon to convince people to pay what Sony is asking for the A7III because Nikon has been selling it for less than the A7III for so long already, starting just 3 months after it was introduced. There is no doubt in my mind that every single piece of hardware inside the Z6 is way more superior in both specs and quality than what Sony uses inside the A7III, and also the Z6 is made in Japan while the A7III is made in China, but still, Nikon is going to have a hard time rising the Z6's price back up to the same level as the A7III.

Which brings us to the Z5's eventual pricing position in the Z system. Granted, Peter does point out that the rumored specs might or might not be correct, but most of them seem to complement each other correctly: you need the EN-EL15 in order to have decent CIPA frame numbers if it has IBIS and/or the Z6's high res EVF, otherwise, the new EN-EL25 from the Z50 would suffice, as Canon uses the M5's battery in the RP, which doesn't equip IBIS or a high res EVF. The IBIS module might not be that expensive after all, as the Sony A7II has one and they are able to sell it for less than $900, albeit this IBIS module is not as precise as the A7III's. The 3,680K-dot EVF OLED panel might have dropped in price as there are now even higher resolution panels available, and Nikon can certainly get a handsome discount thanks to the higher volumes they will be moving, also Nikon could alternatively use a way cheaper field scan LCD panel like the one introduced by Panasonic in their new G100 which is "3,680K-dot equivalent" and the image presented might still be better than the Z50's. So Nikon might be able to pull off a profitable $900 Z5 body after all while still fulfilling all the rumored specs, also all component costs might have gone down in price since Canon's RP was introduced, but in order to do so Nikon might end up cutting corners like they did with the D600, although thanks to all the quality issues that Nikon went through with the D600 and D750 they have improved their mfq. quality levels to a point that we no longer hear about duds coming out of their factories.

tc88

WestEndFoto said:

Nikon is getting itself into a real product management pickle if they adopt the numbering system that you are suggesting.

I just felt the Nikon wants to use number 8 since 800 series DSLR is really what distinguishes Nikon. But I can see Nikon uses Z7ii instead of Z8 for the new high resolution. So it will have Z9 (competing with A9 for sports), Z8 or Z7ii (competing with A7r for high resolution), Z5 (competing with A7 for general purpose) and maybe Z3 (competing with A5 for low end without EVF), though the last one I'm not sure Nikon cares to pursue at all.

Anything more than that is unlikely with the current market size.