Nikon Z5

mhedges

They will probably still sell some Z6 to people wanting video use since Z5 video specs aren't that great but yes I imagine they will be a hard sell for stills photographers.

I gotta think the new versions will be out sometime this year.

WestEndFoto

ByThom's article provides a very interesting perspective:

https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/nikon-goes-low-with-the-new.html

CaMeRaQuEsT

It appears that the sensor on the Z5 is closely related to the one on the D750: same number of total and effective pixels, same pixel sizes for the different file formats, non-BSI, etc. If it ends up having the same dynamic range behavior, i.e. 1/2EV better than the Z6 at ISO 100, then picture me interested, but it needs to sell for the same or less than the D750's gray market price, which is currently about $900; otherwise, the Z6 makes more financial sense to buy, given that it has been sold in the gray market for as low as $1300.

CaMeRaQuEsT

Have to commend Nikon for using most of the Z6's proven, high-quality hardware on the Z5: same IBIS and EVF modules, same shutter (maybe with slower cocking motors), most of the same control points, etc. Nikon says that the decision to reuse these components was economy-driven: both the age and the volumes that Nikon can move of these components drive their costs down. Some of these components might even be re-used on their next "S" generation Z7 and Z6 bodies, as they are still competitive against the competition's. By using a high number of common components across differently priced bodies, Nikon achieves reduced costs while maintaining high quality.

tc88

Nikon probably sourced way more than it managed to consume on the Z6/Z7 since I'm pretty sure the sale of those falls below Nikon's expectation. Now, there is nothing wrong of reusing those components though if you already have them paid for. Also it's always good idea to standardize so that you have as few custom parts to manage as possible.

photobunny

tc88 said:

Nikon probably sourced way more than it managed to consume on the Z6/Z7 since I'm pretty sure the sale of those falls below Nikon's expectation. Now, there is nothing wrong of reusing those components though if you already have them paid for. Also it's always good idea to standardize so that you have as few custom parts to manage as possible.

The cynic in me says the Z5 is a way to reuse all the production of the Z6 and Z7 with the S models of those cameras coming in a different/larger shell. Just look to Apple for examples of this, they are masters of improving production lines so much they can sell the SE2 for bugger all.

CaMeRaQuEsT

Pre-orders for the Z5 appear to be very lackluster. The Canon R6/R5 both shot to the top-selling positions for full-frame mirrorless cameras on B&H the moment pre-orders were opened, maintaining the positions two weeks later. Meanwhile, the Z5 is selling slower than the also just announced Leica M10-R and the 6 months old M10 Monochrom, meaning that the low-resolution Leica M10 models are the only full frame mirrorless bodies in current production being outsold by the Z5. Granted, Nikon has done a terrible job of marketing the Z5's introduction, with hands-on media junkets being organized only in Hong Kong (at their service center no less, allowing Lok Cheung to be the only YouTuber to have a hands-on video of the Z5 in English) and Prague, with not a single presentation video from any Nikon ambassador anywhere to be found. It's like Nikon doesn't want anybody to know about the Z5! This will inevitably push Nikon to go really hard with the discounts in no time, which I will really welcome!

WestEndFoto

CaMeRaQuEsT said:

Pre-orders for the Z5 appear to be very lackluster. The Canon R6/R5 both shot to the top-selling positions for full-frame mirrorless cameras on B&H the moment pre-orders were opened, maintaining the positions two weeks later. Meanwhile, the Z5 is selling slower than the also just announced Leica M10-R and the 6 months old M10 Monochrom, meaning that the low-resolution Leica M10 models are the only full frame mirrorless bodies in current production being outsold by the Z5. Granted, Nikon has done a terrible job of marketing the Z5's introduction, with hands-on media junkets being organized only in Hong Kong (at their service center no less, allowing Lok Cheung to be the only YouTuber to have a hands-on video of the Z5 in English) and Prague, with not a single presentation video from any Nikon ambassador anywhere to be found. It's like Nikon doesn't want anybody to know about the Z5! This will inevitably push Nikon to go really hard with the discounts in no time, which I will really welcome!

Good thing Nikon has lots of cash. They can pay for their marketing mistakes.

That said, I believe that the Z5 will sell well in the long run.

Pistnbroke

Far too expensive in the UK at £1799 ($2000). You can get a grey D850 for that money or a Z7 body
The Z50 is only £599, A Z6 is £1200.
Although some have said its good for weddings ( well OK @24MP IMO (dont do humble )) where are the lenses for that job? The 24-200 will work well but thats more money. Wedding photography is about profit.
Canons finishing of the 5D range makes me wonder if we will get a D880 at all.

mhedges

This forum LOL. Camera was announced two days ago and folks are already willing to pass sweeping judgements on how well it's selling.

WestEndFoto

mhedges said:

This forum LOL. Camera was announced two days ago and folks are already willing to pass sweeping judgements on how well it's selling.

Yup......

PB_PM

I don’t think it’s so much a marketing issue. It’s just not an exciting camera that will grab band wagon hoppers. It’s also not going to get sales from existing Z camera owners, or very many D600/D610/D750 owners either. It’s an entry level camera that will be purchased by people getting their first higher end camera, the kind of people who don’t come to forms or flock to pre-order things on day one. The Z5 will sell well enough, but it’s not going to bust any sales records, let’s not forget camera sales are tanking.

mhedges

It's basically the same as the D750 performance wise. All those folks who complained about single slot and XQD/CFe got exactly what they wanted.

I do agree there's no reason for Z6/Z7 owners to buy this. Maybe a few Z50 users will.

photobunny

mhedges said:

It's basically the same as the D750 performance wise. All those folks who complained about single slot and XQD/CFe got exactly what they wanted.

I do agree there's no reason for Z6/Z7 owners to buy this. Maybe a few Z50 users will.

I think Z50 owners will have bought DX Z glass. I think this will be really tempting for people on the fence to buy into the Z system, but I think they'll wait for the first rebate. Once it is up at $1200 it'll sell well to people with a D750 or similar.

tc88

Well, there are two reasons for "ordering now". (1) It's a sale, and you expect price to go up. or (2) It's a hard to get item that you also don't have alternatives. I don't think Z5 falls into either category. Basically, few people will bother with pre ordering a camera like D5500 or D3500.

However, I don't think there is anything wrong to making "sweeping" judgements already. The specs are out and you pretty much know what kind of camera it is. People probably have a price point in mind regarding how much it's worth, and what kind of features they want. That's enough to make the decisions.

My personal feeling is that it (+ the top screen) is what Z6 should be originally. Except now it's another 2 years late. Thus the price is not really competitive. But I can see why Nikon priced it that way, that's why I called the same price earlier, (mhedges also predicted that).

WestEndFoto

This camera is for

-people upgrading from D600/610s
-first full frame camera, whether they are upgrading or just buying their first camera and they want it to be full frame. For the upgraders, think D90 owners. For first timers, most would buy a Z50, but there will be some that want full frame and that is likely to be a Z5.
-Fuji shooters that want to upgrade to full frame, but since Fuji does not offer that upgrade path. Their medium format, though a very significant upgrade, may not be the path for many. Note that Fuji shooters might also upgrade to the Z6, Z6s, Z7 or Z7s. And note that many Fuji shooters are ex-Nikon shooters.

It is not for:
-D750 owners. They will upgrade to a D780, Z6 or maybe a D850 or Z7.
-Upgrading or switching from competition besides Fuji. Though there will be some of that. Mostly Sony shooters that finally understand that it is all about the lenses and not the body. They will go to Canon or Nikon to access the superior lenses. But it takes a certain frame of mind to jump from the stereotypical Sony customer mindset to a lens first mindset. In my audiophile days, I Sony Stereo System enthusiasts could not wrap their head around my Linn Sondek turntable, Linn Itok arm, Lynn Karma cartridge and Bryston transformer. I saw little of that then and see little of it today. Those customers are also the most likely to "get bored of photography" and revert to their phones. Gear enthusiasm is ephemeral.

WestEndFoto

WestEndFoto said:

This camera is for

-Fuji shooters that want to upgrade to full frame, but since Fuji does not offer that upgrade path. Their medium format, though a very significant upgrade, may not be the path for many. Note that Fuji shooters might also upgrade to the Z6, Z6s, Z7 or Z7s. And note that many Fuji shooters are ex-Nikon shooters.

This has me thinking. I wonder if it has occurred to Nikon to resurrect the DF to lure back Fuji shooters. I think the DF is the right idea for something like that with changes. Say a DF Z5 and a DF Z7. They would need to fix all the little "bitches" people had on the original DF. And not offer video for good measure (-;

Heck, if Nikon made a mirrorless DF2 for f-mount, I would buy it just to shoot my AIS lenses, which are 15mm 3.5, 20mm 2.8, 24mm 2.8, 28mm 2.8, 40mm 2.0 (Voightlander), 50mm 1.2, 100mm 2.8 (Series E), 400mm 5.6 and 800mm 8.0.) The focus peaking would breath a lot of new live into those lenses.

tc88

Actually I think most people buying Z5 will be first time buyers.

I don't think it's worthwhile at all to upgrade from D600/D610. Does it take better pictures? I doubt it. In fact, I would choose D610 over Z5 even currently. D610 has been selling for new for $800 since last November. I certainly won't pay 75% premium just for a mirrorless form factor. Z5's only advantage is video which is just so-so anyway.

I don't think people will upgrade from D90 either. Whoever still uses D90 falls into 2 categories. (1) They have migrated to using cell phone cameras and don't care about standalone cameras any more, (2) It's a free pass down from someone else that they would never bother paying for it. If they had any motivation in better cameras, they would have upgraded long time ago.

photobunny

@tc88 I am glad we got the Z6 we got and not this. Everything about the Z5 is a downgrade from the Z6, it has nothing better about it, not even a proper grip. Unless we just wanted to make the Z7 look better?


And wow, it is going to be £1,589 body only in the UK. The Z6 was £1399 body only when I got it in March. This really seems like it should have been out with the s models to reset the pricing structure.

mhedges

I don't get the whole "take better pictures" argument. That doesn't make sense to me. The reason for upgrading is for additional features, more usability, etc. Not "better pictures" in terms of ultimate image quality.

Mirrorless offers very significant advantages in certain situations. For this camera having a usable silent shutter mode is sure to be attractive to event shooters currently using DSLR. Again, a lot of those shooters were put off Z6 due to single slot and/or SD form factor. This camera removes those barriers.

As far as resurrecting the DF - I think that would be cool but if they do a vintage style Z camera i'd rather it mimic the rangefinder look vs. the DSLR look. That makes more sense to me.

WestEndFoto

mhedges said:

I don't get the whole "take better pictures" argument. That doesn't make sense to me. The reason for upgrading is for additional features, more usability, etc. Not "better pictures" in terms of ultimate image quality.

Mirrorless offers very significant advantages in certain situations. For this camera having a usable silent shutter mode is sure to be attractive to event shooters currently using DSLR. Again, a lot of those shooters were put off Z6 due to single slot and/or SD form factor. This camera removes those barriers.

As far as resurrecting the DF - I think that would be cool but if they do a vintage style Z camera i'd rather it mimic the rangefinder look vs. the DSLR look. That makes more sense to me.

Hmm......rangefinder look. I had not thought of that.

Yes, the "Take Better Pictures" argument had me scratching my head for the reasons you described. That would apply to the "Last Camera Syndrome", but you can then make the same argument for any camera and Nikon sells more than zero cameras.

Also, those cheap D610s are not going to be around for much longer. It is not even listed on the Canadian Nikon website.

tc88

It's a camera. The first and most important criteria is how good the picture is!

Whether a particular model is available or not is irrelevant. The point is if you have a FF camera D600 or newer, you are not going to get much picture quality improvement at all. And you can get such a camera for about $1k.

BTW, D850 can take silent pictures too in live view. In fact, it's a bonus because people are associating the click with the picture taken on DSLR. Granted, for moving objects, may not work as well.

But how many of event photographers are there? If that's the only selling point, then I think the camera makers are in deeper trouble.

Now I'm willing to pay $100 or so to have silent shutter. But $1.5k? Seriously? If you ask people that you can give them $1.5k to either upgrade their camera to a silent shutter or give them a top of line iphone + extra cash, see which one they are going to choose. The answer is obvious to me.

BTW, that's why there is the last camera syndrome. The slow advances over the last few years on Nikon's side are just not enough to be bothered with regarding upgrading. At least I see faster improvements on the Canon and Sony sides. They may have started from a lower point, or they may stall at some point too in the future too. But I consider they are at a more advanced point now, (well Canon probably not regarding the picture quality), and the trendline is steeper.

mhedges

D850 silent shutter is not very useable due to the poor AF. And the need to be in live view so there is no viewfinder available. D780 has good silent shutter AF (being basically a Z6 at that point) but it still has the limitation of no viewfinder.

Why are people buying any mirrorless cameras then? They don't take better pictures than DSLR.

I do agree Last Camera Syndrome is certainly a big problem for manufacturers. I don't really see how Sony or especially Canon are doing all that much better given the time their cameras have been on the market. Canon's newest models are really pretty close to the original Z's two years later, albeit with some improvements. Sony had a big head start but the gap is closing.

Honestly I agree with West End about Sony. I think long term they are in trouble. The gravy train of converts from Canikon must be slowing down a lot, if not flat out stopping. And they won't be able to keep up with lenses.

tc88

mhedges said:

Why are people buying any mirrorless cameras then? They don't take better pictures than DSLR.

You misconstrue my question. Rather the question is, why should people pay $1400 for camera A when the $800 camera B takes pictures of same quality. Whether both of them are DSLR, or both are mirrorless, or one DSLR and one mirrorless, does not invalidate the question.

WestEndFoto

TC88, I agree with your perspective. If you can find one, a new D610 will be excellent value. A new D750 will be excellent value. If I was happy with 24mp (and for many things I would be) and had an f-mount lens set, a D610/750 would be very compelling. I actually thought of buying a "new" D750 for infrared. There is a shop in Seattle that does a good job of that. But I have been advised that mirrorless cameras are better for infrared due to focus issues so I will buy something mirrorless for that. Perhaps a Z5. I have to research the lenses in an infrared scenario before I pull that trigger.

So this is last camera syndrome. I get that. I have adopted that strategy for f-mount. There is no advantage in moving to mirrorless for one of my use cases. I will get a second D850 or perhaps a D880 and those will be my last f-mount cameras which should service that use case until I can no longer get the cameras serviced.

The other three use cases. Well that is why I am plotting my mirrorless strategy, but have not pulled the trigger. And one of the use cases is served by my premium f-mount glass well enough until the premium Z-products that I want (not need) are released. So I am OK for now.