At last Z6s and Z7s

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  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,223Member
    Do you mean the more powerful dual AF processors? I suppose they could, but that might be reserved for a higher end D6 like mirrorless camera.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 1,586Member
    They can’t really get the D6 focus system since that’s a DSLR tech and can’t be used on a mirrorless camera. But they are rumored to have dual image processors which should help since AF on mirrorless cameras is basically entirely software and processing based.
  • photobunnyphotobunny Posts: 153Member
    I would like to see a D550 and D880 as the last hurrah of the DSLR world from Nikon to include the D6 AF. As for the Z6s and Z7s they just need more processing, but even then I think mirrorless is not quite me for some subjects yet. I very much hope the D6 isn't the last Nikon, that would be going out with a whimper. But maybe they'll pull a R5 class performer with the Z7s and no one will care about a D880.
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,340Member

    Lets hope they get the Z7s right ..The canon R5 overheats after 20 min of video ..its in the instruction book ! WE are familiar with the 29m59sec recording limit but at least you can start another file staight away.

    Something had to give to make it 8k without a cooling fan. Though like with every camera I have ever used, I'll record ten minutes of my snake doing snake things about the garden then promptly return to stills. The Z6s and Z7s just have to up their AF for me, I already love the sensor on the Z6 and don't particularly want to chance a major change to it.
    This is why as a stills photographer I don't give a damn about video and when people say "add video it is just a button" I roll my eyes. No, it is not just a button. The 24mp sensor in the Z5 is a fantastic sensor for still photography and you would need to spend a lot more money to get a marginal improvement. But if you start focussing on video, your run into overheating constraints and you run into those overheating constraints a lot sooner on the Z5 sensor than you do on the latest sensor. You start making the Z5 a video camera and you add $500 to $1,000 to the cost in no time and while you have not degraded the stills performance, you have not significantly improved it and you have put the camera out of reach of an entry level photographer.

    This is why the Z5 shoots high resolution video in crop while the Z6 does not. Nikon should focus on making their Z6 and Z9 great video cameras. The Z6 because it is a good strategic place for that objective and the Z9 because it will have the best of everything and cost will be no object.

    For the Z50, Z5, Z7 and Z8, Nikon should focus on making the best possible stills camera but not spend a dime trying to make it a better video camera.
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,223Member
    10-20+ minutes recording regardless of the device and it will heat up. In any case it’s not so much the sensor that gets too hot, it’s the cameras SOC (CPU/GPU etc). It’s like if you play games or record high quality video on your smartphone, that stuff gets hot from the workload.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • photobunnyphotobunny Posts: 153Member
    @WestEndFoto I agree with the sentiment, but sadly the market demands cameras that can do both and they must do both or suffer the Youtube. Like the Canon R5 is being put up against that new 12MP Sony as if they are even remotely comparable things.
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,340Member

    @WestEndFoto I agree with the sentiment, but sadly the market demands cameras that can do both and they must do both or suffer the Youtube. Like the Canon R5 is being put up against that new 12MP Sony as if they are even remotely comparable things.

    I think that Nikon has to strongly resist that. The "Real video" market, as Thom quoted, is an order of magnitude smaller than "real photography" market. They probably need to communicate better as part of that resistance.

    I think that if Nikon makes the Z6 and the Z9 great video cameras and communicates the intention, the market will get that. I suspect that a Z6 24mp sensor can be read at 28fps 4k for 30 minutes without overheating. The next iteration may be at 60 or even 120. That give you a solid 6k ability on that camera which gives the videographer the ability to crop to 4K in post.

    For example:

    Nikon Marketing Release
    Z6 and Z9. Pure photography plus leading edge video.
    Z50, Z5, Z7, Z8. Pure photography. Video in a pinch.


    The wedding photography industry can buy a Z6 or a Z9. The other reason to buy a Z6 would be fps. The low light reason is not really a reason anymore for 95% of photographers (increasing MP does not degrade low light performance like it use to). If you don't need high FPS, video or high resolution, the Z5 is a great camera and I doubt that 99% of people could tell the difference between a photography taken on either a Z5 or Z6, despite the sensor being different.
  • photobunnyphotobunny Posts: 153Member
    @WestEndFoto I personally picked the Z6 as it is the better of the 3(2 at the time) for wildlife and general use. The Z7 doesn't have the FPS and the Z5 wouldn't even be a consideration with its SD slots and lower build(Will it hold up as well when it is raining sideways?).

    But back to the main thing, I can get you that all of these cameras should be stills first. Getting a good stills camera should eventually produce a good video camera by default.
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,340Member
    edited July 30

    @WestEndFoto I personally picked the Z6 as it is the better of the 3(2 at the time) for wildlife and general use. The Z7 doesn't have the FPS and the Z5 wouldn't even be a consideration with its SD slots and lower build(Will it hold up as well when it is raining sideways?).

    But back to the main thing, I can get you that all of these cameras should be stills first. Getting a good stills camera should eventually produce a good video camera by default.

    Yes, in a few years even the cheap sensors should be able to produce decent 6k by default (allowing crop to 4k). But there is a small niche demand for 8k and that niche demand will really want 10k with full sensor readout at 120 fps for a full 30 minutes, ten second break, and then another 30 minutes (those pesky EU rules!!!). I think that it is going to be a long time until a sensor that is great for stills will be able to do that by default.

    An interesting side note, as the video spec improves, the energy consumption per still shot will improve. Combined with the steady improvement of battery life, per charge shot performance still has a lot of runway for improvement.
    Post edited by WestEndFoto on
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,223Member
    These days I doubt much work goes into making the video features work, and has more to do with the processing power of the camera body. It's basically a subset of the required EVF and liveview screens anyway, which operate on the same principle. The video codecs are industry standard with nominal license fees ($2-3 per device sold), or none at all in some cases, so no work for Nikon there. Most of the heavy lifting in this area was done years ago (developing the menu system, video recording settings, audio recording), and much of it is likely cut and paste from model to model at this point, with minor tweaks based on what price point the camera has. I doubt adding video features is making the cameras $1000 more expensive. The SOC for these devices likely cost a $100-200 per unit upfront, if that.

    Most of the costs of cameras is are likely the areas of AF development, circuit board designers, manufacturing rigs, the designers of the physical shells, marketing and warranty/repair network. It's the cost of the highly experienced staff behind the design that bring up the cost, not so the components. We see this when companies like iFix it take apart the latest phone or other gadget. The cost of the components is often less than 25% of the retail price.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • photobunnyphotobunny Posts: 153Member

    But there is a small niche demand for 8k and that niche demand will really want 10k with full sensor readout at 120 fps for a full 30 minutes, ten second break, and then another 30 minutes (those pesky EU rules!!!)..

    EU rules on that tax are gone now. The 29.97(8,9)m record limit is now just segmentation.
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,340Member
    Yes, you are correct on those things PB_PM. But the cost increase is mostly the hardware. For example, the Z5 24mp sensor does not have the same data throughput with the same heat output as the Z6 24mp sensor. They are actually different sensors. I am sure that the Z6 sensor costs more - or Nikon would have used that sensor.

    And consider that Expeed processors have their own limitations. Note that the Z6s is rumoured to have 2 Expeed processors. Or when the Expeed 7 comes out, it will cost more than the Expeed 6 and it will perform better for video.

    So yes, I can imagine those things costing, as I said in my earlier post, $500 to $1,000 extra.
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,223Member
    The hardware just isn't that expensive, but I don't expect most people to realize that. I know people in the industry, the SOCs just aren't that pricey to make/buy per unit. If they were the cameras would cost $1000 more than they do now.
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • PistnbrokePistnbroke Posts: 2,107Member
    I was looking at Sony vertical grips and they put the batteries on edge rather than flat like Nikon . By doing this the grip can be made thinner and avoid the wart ..maybe.
  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 1,586Member
    Yeah I don’t think the heating problem comes from the sensor itself. Mirrorless cameras of course are always reading off the sensor anyway. Now maybe they skip lines or reduce dynamic range or do some other tricks to reduce power consumption that can’t be done while actually recording - does anyone know?

    As far as the R5 vs A7SIII - I think comparisons are inevitable. From what I have seen the Canon is ahead in all areas except the heating issue. And with the canon you of course get an excellent stills camera which you don’t really get with the Sony.
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,223Member
    edited August 1
    Using the LCD or EVF wouldn’t use as much power because it’s not doing as much work. While recording the camera is doing the AD conversion, buffering the data, encoding to an H264/H265 format and writing to the memory card. That’s some heavy lifting for a low power, passively cooled SOC like the Expeed type. With the EVF or LCD all the camera has to do is AD conversion and put it out to the selected display.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • tc88tc88 Posts: 487Member
    Those are getting more and more expensive as the trend continues.
  • PistnbrokePistnbroke Posts: 2,107Member
    I have heard they decided not to fit a fan..could this not go behind the rear tilt LCD which you pull out to allow air flow when recording video.....They forgot the 7 p's
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,223Member
    edited August 1
    Fan noise would be a big problem for audio recording, I doubt it would go over well. Small fans, which have to run at high rpms to cool effectively, by nature tend to be obnoxious.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,351Member
    Since this thread is about the upcoming s versions of the Z6 and Z7 I am going to suggest that those s versions may just be the first "real" Z bodies. Why? Because if they have two card slots and an attachable or built-in vertical grip they will address the two major reasons many DSLR owners have not yet switched to the Z system. The Z lenses are all proving to be superior so most people would want to move to a Z mount body if they didn't feel they were giving up something (two card slots and vertical grip) important to them. We may well see a significant uptick in Z body sales after the s versions come out. Then if Nikon gives us a "pro" D single digit type Z body in a Z8 or Z9 the transition will speed up even more.
  • photobunnyphotobunny Posts: 153Member
    @donaldejose i think if the S versions bring faster AF that would be what will sway more DSLR people over. Don’t get me wrong, my Z6 is no slouch, but as it stands I keep wanting to reach for a DSLR through fear of missing a fast moving subject. I would also love a D6 style body with a beefy battery and dual CF Express.
  • donaldejosedonaldejose Posts: 3,351Member
    photobunny: I have been using a Z6 for most subjects: but a D4 or D500 when I need speed on a moving object. I cannot yet fully transition.
  • tc88tc88 Posts: 487Member
    There is also the price factor. Camera is still a technology item. If Nikon wants $2.5k for something that people felt should had been released two years ago for $2k, I doubt the reception will be good. I don't think there is much price insensitive hard demand for these.
  • photobunnyphotobunny Posts: 153Member
    Hopefully we see some real rumours and an announcement soon. I am looking at that 70-200S and wondering if it is a good buy just now or if I should get the little fat RF 70-200 and a R5. I don't need Nikon to be ahead, just on par with a proper grip and fast AF, especially after having been spoiled by trying out that R5 and it picked out rabbit eyes and bird eyes before I could possibly move a AF point.
  • PistnbrokePistnbroke Posts: 2,107Member
    Nikon have got it wrong so many times we can only pray...( and I have not faith in that )
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