Z6 ii and Z7 ii

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Comments

  • photobunnyphotobunny Posts: 646Member
    @Pistnbroke when a community that you would expect to be vocal and lively is a bit dead feeling and long term users are hoping Nikon pick up. It does make me feel more than a wee bit that this Z6 I have is just a temporary little toy.
  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 2,881Member
    Well this board has never been super lively, at least not while I've been coming here. There's far more action in the comments sections on the blog posts.
  • KnockKnockKnockKnock Posts: 398Member
    There's history to this. The platform not being able to protect vs account hijacking, spamming. So new users weren't being admitted. I still can't update my signature. All around the time Nikon did some questionable work. With the Z series, the product may be headed back in the right direction, but this forum and maybe the Nikon community has yet to recover to the activity it once saw.
    D7100, D60, 35mm f/1.8 DX, 50mm f/1.4, 18-105mm DX, 18-55mm VR II, Sony RX-100 ii
  • photobunnyphotobunny Posts: 646Member

    There's history to this. The platform not being able to protect vs account hijacking, spamming. So new users weren't being admitted. I still can't update my signature. All around the time Nikon did some questionable work. With the Z series, the product may be headed back in the right direction, but this forum and maybe the Nikon community has yet to recover to the activity it once saw.

    Merging the blog comments with the forum would go a long way. I frequent CanonRumours and it is a very lively community with all kinds of discussions and buzz over new products and speculation from patents to pure speculation. Even Nikon is discussed and often seen in a positive light with many Canon owners also having a D850 and 500mm PF(that setup is a fan fave, Nikon should have made it a S lens)
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,494Member
    edited September 2020
    This place was extremely busy from 2010-2013, but as sales of Nikon products have dropped, so to has interest in Nikon rumours/communities. Many people switched to other brands, or just didn’t have interest in new gear, and left. The switch to nw forum software a few years ago also so a big drop, or maybe it was just due to the above happening at about the same time.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • It's tough to be third/fourth in market share without innovative products, particularly when your staff and resources are far less than your competition. Nikon has, with some exceptions, always been in the shadow of Canon since the introduction of EOS system, the D800 being perhaps the potential start of a new era. That hasn't panned out for Nikon since about 2013 with Sony's push into the market with the A7 and A7R series.

    If you look at the new product releases from Canon, they are perhaps unique and innovative in a way in which Nikon cannot compete head to head. Use of Diffractive glues, software modification to allow current alignment of lenses (should they go out of alignment - see Lens Rental's review of the 600MM f11), stacked sensor tech, all point to Canon's move to out duel Sony, leaving Nikon in the dust. Yes Nikon has an edge in overall haptics, very reliable products, with perhaps the best overall lens quality in the market with the Z series; yet, there is not a whole lot of cutting edge innovation there (at least that is obvious).

    It's not that Nikon products are not great (and they are), but their strategy has always been as an "alternative" to Canon, while with Sony in the market, their products are not unique enough to make most people lust for them (the D850 being an exception and the Z lenses).

    Nikon can't cut corners with their products unless they want to reposition themselves as the low price provider, and I don't see that happening. I think they decided to do exactly that with the Z6 and Z7 as they did not incorporate certain eye-focusing software and standard dual slots that were market competitive. Whomever made those decisions not to include should be fired or reassigned, because it undermined what are indeed good products (Banding is another issue). Short sidedness is not an attribute that Nikon needs to be tagged with.

    When I look at Canon, I see much lower DR than Nikon or Sony, but perhaps more neutral color. In innovation (sans sensor tech) they are number one. With Sony, the colors are absolutely oversaturated and completely unnatural - awful. How anyone can be satisfied with the output is beyond me. Having said that, there seems to be some improvement with the Ar7IV but I have not tested it to confirm.

    Nikon buyers will have to remain patient. Eventually Nikon (god willing) will provide new tech and update their cameras more frequently with cutting edge tech to improve the following here. I am hopeful.

    Flip
  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 2,881Member
    Huh? What? Canon lenses are great but their bodies have been infamous for being hit with the cripple hammer for a very long time now. Before R5/R6 when was the last time they put out a body that was really well received? As in, folks were excited to buy it? And where exactly did they innovate?

    Also the banding thing is a totally contrived nonissue. It's almost impossible to come across it in real world usage. The Z cameras have their faults sure but banding isn't one of them. Check out the excellent article in Photography Life about it:

    https://photographylife.com/the-reality-behind-nikon-z-banding-issues

  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,494Member
    edited September 2020
    mhedges said:

    Huh? What? Canon lenses are great but their bodies have been infamous for being hit with the cripple hammer for a very long time now. Before R5/R6 when was the last time they put out a body that was really well received? As in, folks were excited to buy it? And where exactly did they innovate?

    5D MKII and 7D were the last bodies Canon really hit it out of the park with, but like the D700/D800/D800E the 5D MKII and 7D came out at the peak of DSLR sales. Then again that's our enthusiast view. Nikon and Canon sold more D3xxx and entry level Rebels than anything else combined. So really entry level cameras are the ones that needed to win buyers. Maybe that's the mistake most of the camera markers are making now, too much focus on the high end of the market.

    Since 2013 it's been downhill for all of them. Right now Sony, Canon and Nikon are in a race to see who can gobble up what little is left of the dedicated camera market, and even that is dying fast.


    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • KnockKnockKnockKnock Posts: 398Member
    I was thinking 5D MKII also. Maybe 80D. For Nikon I've read about the D3/D300 release, but that was before "my time." I guess the D750/D810/D850 were a peak of sorts.
    D7100, D60, 35mm f/1.8 DX, 50mm f/1.4, 18-105mm DX, 18-55mm VR II, Sony RX-100 ii
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,494Member
    edited September 2020
    The D3/D300/D700 were great cameras, no doubt about it. I owned a D700 and still have a D300 lying around, really solid cameras, no problems (no recalls), and for the time great AF. Least troublesome cameras, and best assembled cameras I've ever had, by far. Everything else feels slightly lesser in some regard (built quality wise). Features for the time were great, but not class leading. What Nikon got right was high ISO performance, an area in which they were far better than Canon at the time. But then again Canon had that 21MP sensor in the 5D MKII.

    I believe Nikon stated that the D90 was the best selling individual DSLR they ever released. Not fancy, not tons of MP, but it was the first consumer Nikon body with video (albeit 720p). They likely sold more D40/D40x/D3xxx in total, but for a single camera, the D90 did extremely well. I bet the D7000 wasn't far behind, since there are tons of them on the used market now days.

    I believe the D750 was the best selling FX body Nikon has ever made, if what retailers have hinted at is true. Also sounds like the D610 wasn't far behind, and when you consider the retail price and features of both cameras, it's not hard to see why. If Nikon does things right the Z5 could be in that place too, but it's hard to say.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 2,881Member
    I’d be really surprised if the D90 was the best seller. It was very popular but I gotta think it was outsold by a 3000 series body.

    Also my understanding is the 610 outsold the 750. Which doesn’t really make sense to me but I saw numbers supporting that. I guess because the 610 came out significantly earlier, and was the cheaper option.
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,742Member
    I think that the Z5 will not be the introductory full frame model for long. I think that there is one more step, a full frame Z50. I think that Nikon needs to be able to (1) further lower the price by a few hundred bucks and (2) have a camera with a really small form factor. Call it a Z3 and if Nikon does that both the Z3 and Z5 will outsell Z6, Z7, Z8 and Z9 combined.

    I also think that they need a solid APS-C lineup. Probably two cameras, a Z30 and Z50. Maybe a Z70 which would be a Z5 with a small sensor. The question becomes lenses. I am a little torn on what Nikon should do hear. Perhaps launch compact primes with focal lengths good for APS-C and FX, or a line of APS-C lenses?

    Hmmm...….
  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 2,881Member
    Agree. I think they need a Z 30 with no EVF which is roughly equivalent to the 3400/3500 in price and performance.

    For crop sensor lenses I’d do a wide angle zoom and a 35mm prime and I think that’s it. They already have the 18-140 on the roadmap and that’s good for a superzoom. For everything else they can use the FF lenses; hopefully the compact primes are pretty reasonable. Maybe do a higher end walk around lens similar to the 16-80, especially if they do a higher end crop camera.
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,494Member
    edited September 2020
    mhedges said:

    I’d be really surprised if the D90 was the best seller. It was very popular but I gotta think it was outsold by a 3000 series body.

    I was kind of surprised, but it was the upper level consumer body that was out there. The D90 ($999) was out at just the right time (August 2008), D300 was a $1899 body (August 2007 release), the D700 (July 2008) was $2999 and only available in small numbers, then D3 at $4999. Many people opted for the D90 beacuse unless you needed the speed and features of the D300 there was nothing different between them, after all at the time all the bodies had a 12MP sensor (other than the D60/D3000 at 10MP). Those were the options during near the peak of DSLR sales in 2008-2010.

    The D7000 didn't ship until the fall of 2010. The D90 also stayed available at heavily discounted prices ($599 or less) for at least a year or two after the D7000 was released, and sales of DSLRs started to drop. The D3000 was the entry level model at the time, and it was just a refreshed D60 (which was just a refreshed D40x), with updated menu options, and I don't think it sold all that well as a result. If I recall correctly Thom Hogan mentioned it a few times over the years, because I cannot think of anyone else who would have that kind of insider knowledge.
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,742Member
    mhedges said:

    Agree. I think they need a Z 30 with no EVF which is roughly equivalent to the 3400/3500 in price and performance.

    For crop sensor lenses I’d do a wide angle zoom and a 35mm prime and I think that’s it. They already have the 18-140 on the roadmap and that’s good for a superzoom. For everything else they can use the FF lenses; hopefully the compact primes are pretty reasonable. Maybe do a higher end walk around lens similar to the 16-80, especially if they do a higher end crop camera.

    Yes, they have to do that at a minimum. The question is whether they do a 2.8 trinity and a few more 1.8 primes in DX.
  • PB_PMPB_PM Posts: 4,494Member
    edited September 2020
    I suspect there will be few DX lens options, at least in the short term. I wouldn't be at all surprised if all they only ever ship are the kit lenses, and maybe a 35mm F1.8?
    Post edited by PB_PM on
    If I take a good photo it's not my camera's fault.
  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 2,881Member
    I doubt there will be a 2.8 DX trinity. There wasn't one for F mount when the volumes were higher. And why pay the $$ for that when you can get the same performance with F4 zooms on FF for an overall cheaper price?
  • photobunnyphotobunny Posts: 646Member
    edited September 2020
    I personally feel Nikon shouldn't be pissing about with DX mirrorless just now. Full focus should have been on the Z6/Z7 with DX and Z5's coming out in a few years, or the Z5 coming out at $999 to help shift Z lenses. I don't think it wise to spread so thin, I mean look at Canon, he are pushing out all the pro stuff and huge impressive lenses which is creating a perception that they are good and that tech will trickle down in the future to crop once they have established the full frame line. To me that approach appears full of confidence, so much so that they turned a lot of heads with the R5 with a full 2.8 holy trinity, 100-500 and 3 f/1.2 primes for professionals to just get kicking on.
    Post edited by photobunny on
  • spraynprayspraynpray Posts: 6,545Moderator

    I personally feel Nikon shouldn't be pissing about with DX mirrorless just now.

    Agreed. Commit or leave them for later (maybe). I love DX but I don't think this luke warm approach is the way to go. Hopefully they are right.

    Always learning.
  • retreadretread Posts: 574Member
    I shoot high end DX. There is not much size advantage as I use mostly FX glass and have grips on the cameras. I will eventually move to FX but will not abandon DX. I plan to shoot both. Nikon should at least have a roadmap for DX. No grip is almost a game killer for me.
  • KnockKnockKnockKnock Posts: 398Member
    Very slight nod to be on topic. Perhaps the Z6s and Z7s will telegraph a possible Z70. Dual card slots, grip compatible body, high-throughput, and one higher-end (2.8-4.0) DX zoom. That then becomes the "reach" body for longer FX lenses.
    D7100, D60, 35mm f/1.8 DX, 50mm f/1.4, 18-105mm DX, 18-55mm VR II, Sony RX-100 ii
  • mhedgesmhedges Posts: 2,881Member
    Yep. And I'd add IBIS. Although as far as reach, you would of course likely get the same reach with Z7s in DX mode and it wouldn't have the drawbacks that accompany shooting in DX mode on DSLR (mainly the much smaller viewfinder image).
  • WestEndFotoWestEndFoto Posts: 3,742Member

    Very slight nod to be on topic. Perhaps the Z6s and Z7s will telegraph a possible Z70. Dual card slots, grip compatible body, high-throughput, and one higher-end (2.8-4.0) DX zoom. That then becomes the "reach" body for longer FX lenses.

    I think that they will use the Z5 body/features for that.
  • PistnbrokePistnbroke Posts: 2,443Member
    The main thing people complain about with the Z6/7 is the poor focus. So OK Nikon rushed these out (maybe) but did the focus improve on the later models? Z5/Z50?
    Not in a major way. So the Z7s Z6s will be a failure unless they can get the focus up to D850 standards and the more recent models dont give me confidence they will.
    I dont see much advance with the lenses either ..they just seem to be 20mm longer .
  • photobunnyphotobunny Posts: 646Member

    The main thing people complain about with the Z6/7 is the poor focus. So OK Nikon rushed these out (maybe) but did the focus improve on the later models? Z5/Z50?
    Not in a major way. So the Z7s Z6s will be a failure unless they can get the focus up to D850 standards and the more recent models dont give me confidence they will.
    I dont see much advance with the lenses either ..they just seem to be 20mm longer .

    They issue is more that they focus like a DSLR in a era where the R5 can pick out a humming bird eye and focus on it before you know it is there. All the basics of the AF is there, software wise, it is just laggy which suggests there is not enough processor grunt.

    All of the S lenses are best in class, they can just keep making the S lenses as they are now. Just more S lenses and less pissing about trying to put out two lines of camera at once.
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