Z6 ii and Z7 ii

WestEndFoto

snakebunk said:

Isn't it very hard to predict future cameras when we don't know about the technical restrains? For example, if there is a new 20 mp sensor with extremely good iso handling there might be a reason to have two pro models, but if there is a really good new 40 mp sensor there may not be any reason to have more than one model. Also I don't think we know how much data future cameras can handle and how different pixel densities and pdaf setups affect af etc. My guess is that Nikon has a number of different draft designs and then selects one or two of them based on market analysis.

Personally I like big camera bodies but I don't think it will be worth the cost for me to use a new pro model.

You bring up an excellent point Snakebunk.

The thing with technical constraints is that they disappear - which is another way of saying that it become difficult or impossible to differentiate between products based on them. For example, it is becoming very difficult to differentiate between sensors based on the things that mattered 5 years ago. The differences between Sony and Canon sensors based on dynamic range based on noise and dynamic range are essentially meaningless. All that is basically left now is read speed and today that matters for video. It is likely that this will also impact future autofocus performance as well as competition focusses on that. But eventually, that difference will disappear and even entry level cameras will have 12k 240p 12:4:4 video in whatever raw format you desire. It is not a question of if, but when.

The only difference left will be the noise vs resolution tradeoff.

So to illustrate the practical implication of the point, let's assume that there is no way to differentiate a camera based on a sensor, except sensor resolution, and that the sensor costs are similar regardless of resolution. This will be the end state - again, it is a question of when, not if. This takes us full circle back to the film days.

Then what does Nikon do with the Z 6 and Z 7 line? The possible ways to differentiate the cameras in meaningful ways, disappear. Today, the differentiation is based on how we measure performance today: Noise (minimal), dynamic range (non-existent), resolution (significant) and read speed (insignificant on a "per pixel" basis between the two BSI sensors, but significant if you throw the FSI sensor on the Z 5 into the mix.

Nikon will have two choices:

1.
Eliminate one model line.
2.
Change one model line.

If they select option 2, it could (this is VERY speculative) look like this:

-Integrate the optional control grip into the Z 7 and add a few features, such as GPS and/or internal Wifi/Radio and/or internal SSD. To an earlier comment about heat, the bigger body will partially mitigate this issue.

-Ensure that the Z8/9 are a significant step up - double the processors of the Z 7, all of the feature options plus plus plus, rugged build and weatherproofing, bigger body size, perhaps two internal D6 batteries.

Eliminate the Z 5, as the Z 6 has the same body / ergonomic / feature layout and the differences in sensors and processors will be minimal.

I will go one step further and predict future sensors when all of this shakes out:
1.
20 mp, high ISO, 6k, lower noise
2.
48 mp, 8k, higher resolution
3.
96 mp, 12k, for the pure photographer that wants as close to medium format performance as they can get

Perhaps every model line with have an option on the 3?

Gomen'nasai Umatatesama? Did I just spill the beans?

snakebunk

@WestEndFoto: I agree with the three camera lines as a reasonable base strategy for pro and enthusiast photography. Mostly because it fits well with the different kinds of users. But I also think that Nikon may do it slightly different from time to time based on current constraints and possibilities (like with the D800 and D800e). I also agree that many of the current constraints will dissapear, but on the other hand new ones will arise as technology and demand moves forward.

donaldejose

I want that 96 mp model! My guess is that at least some of the S line lenses will be able to resolve detail sufficiently to utilize such a sensor.

WestEndFoto

donaldejose said:

I agree with WEF. It is not the megapixel comparison or the price comparison some of you guys make that counts. It is the "pro" body style vs the "advanced amateur" body style that counts. Advanced amateur and pro body styles used/use a different control layout and the "pro" bodies had/have a more robust build.

Case in point, Nikon actually writes "Non-Professional" on the top of the camera. You just have to learn how to read Nikonese.

U1, U2 and U3 are all Nikonese for "Non-Professional". Now pardon my cynical attitude, but tell me that it isn't true.

I would rather see those spaces used for.....wait........scratch that. The existence of the dial disqualifies it as a professional camera because it is difficult to operate with your eye looking through the viewfinder. I want a mode button like on my D850 that combined with the command dials, enables me to switch settings on the fly. I have the Movie Record Button (red button next to the shutter release) repurposed (because I don't use video) to select Mode. The options are P, A, S and M. I would suggest that Nikon add the following:

A(f). The "f" stands for focus. The main command dial would select aperture. A menu selection would select the desired circle of confusion - I would recommend large with low resolution sensors or lenses and small with high resolution sensors and lenses. With A(f) selected, the camera would select all the eyes in a frame and would select the largest aperture smaller or equal to the aperture selected with the main command dial where all the subjects (for example: eyes) would be in focus as defined by the selected circle of confusion. Now that would be useful and as sensor read speed and processor speed increased, would be able to deal with increasingly complex situations.

S(mb). The "mb" stands for motion blur. Again, a menu selection would select the desired circle of confusion. The Main Command Dial would be used to select the "focus calculation area" in the viewfinder. Basically, this would compute the slowest shutter speed at which the subject and/or subject would be in focus with no motion blur - measured in 3 dimensions. Algorithms similar those used for IBIS and VR would continuously compute the shutter speed as the desired shutter speed would also be affected by the camera's motion. One might set the camera for CH, which would be 9 fps on my D850, and fill up the buffer with a hundred or so shots. Imagine panning a runner using S(mb) combined with VR and a long lens. On a 200mm lens, you might have shutter speeds ranging from 1-200 to 1-10 in the burst with almost all of the subjects in each image in proper focus with no motion blur - but the backgrounds with various amounts of blur. Call this "motion bokeh on steroids".

I wonder what else those smart Nikon (or Canon or Sony if Nikon drags its ass) engineers can come up with to solve real world problems given what is coming with improved sensors and processors? Any ideas?

spraynpray

Anything that allows 200 rule astrophotography without noise gets my money!

mhedges

Some interesting speculation here. Who knows where things will go, but I can't see integrated grips becoming more common. There's just so much push for size reduction. I think that will remain on a single TOTL pro speed body but everything else will require an add on.

donaldejose

mhedges, you are likely correct about the integrated grip remaining on a single pro body. Interestingly, DPReview speculated that Nikon will produce just such a body in 2021. They also think a D880 will be out this year and that will be the last of the DSLR style bodies Nikon produces. If there is only one Z body out in 2021 and it is a top of the line integrated grip body I do hope they produce it in two variations; one with 24 mp for speed and one with 80 or so megapixels for studio and landscape work.

rmp

I hope the 24 and 80 mp models are produced.

photobunny

Another wee review of the Z6ii from the point of view of a wildlife chap. Still happy with my Z6 as is, but good to see there is more in the 2 than the spec sheet suggests.

NSXTypeR

Random question, I know that the Z6 and Z7 top LCDs are OLEDs now. Do they have a back light?

Thanks.

photobunny

NSXTypeR said:

Random question, I know that the Z6 and Z7 top LCDs are OLEDs now. Do they have a back light?

Thanks.

OLED self light. You can certainly see it and even the screen on the S lenses in blackness.

NSXTypeR

photobunny said:

NSXTypeR said:

Random question, I know that the Z6 and Z7 top LCDs are OLEDs now. Do they have a back light?

Thanks.

OLED self light. You can certainly see it and even the screen on the S lenses in blackness.

Gotcha, thanks. I was thinking E-ink display by accident.

photobunny

So... when can I push a big bag of money to Nikon to pre-order a Z9? (And hopefully a 400mm f/2.8 to go with it.)

mhedges

My guess- official announcement in May. Available in early fall

photobunny

Arrival on the 13th of November would be ideal.. for no particular reason. Though, autumn/winter isn't the most fun time to own a new camera.

WestEndFoto

I might wait a year to see how the Z8 compares to the Z9, but the Z9 meets my basic criteria that I require to be met before committing to Z-mount for my IQ no object use case. Therefore, any doubts that I have about moving to Z is put to rest.

donaldejose

WEF: Agreed, time to migrate away from F mount. The FTN allows us to continue using any F mount lenses we like which are not available in Z mount.

WestEndFoto

donaldejose said:

WEF: Agreed, time to migrate away from F mount. The FTN allows us to continue using any F mount lenses we like which are not available in Z mount.

I will continue to invest in F-mount. In fact, I intend to buy a D880 and perhaps a second one. My goal is to extend the life of my F-mount glass, particularly the holy trinity and a few other lenses, to 2030.

For Z-mount, I will focus on primes, starting with the 1.8 and 1.2 primes. I don't intend to buy any zooms unless it is the only way to get 14mm, which was the original reason to buy the 14-24 2.8G. I always considered that my 14mm prime.

But another thing that the Z9 has done has removed any doubts that I might have on whether I will be happy entirely in Z. And it is not because it is a mirrorless D6. It is because it is high resolution in a pro body. My minimum requirement is a D850 w/grip style high mp mirrorless body. A D6 style mirrorless hi mp body is even better. Now my last reservations about the Z7ii are gone. I have several use cases that the Z7ii will be perfect for including shooting my AIS collection in MF, infrared and just a decent walk around camera I can have on me all the time.

For travel, I see myself eventually having a Z9, Z9ii and all the 1.8 primes. But I might substitute a Z8 for the Z9 if it is higher resolution.

So yes, I am an example of how Nikon doesn't need to make much money from their flagships as I will not only buy the flagship.

donaldejose

WEF: Nikon must love customers like you! They can sell you all the high end expensive F mount bodies and glass and then when you realize all prime and zoom Z mount glass is better they can sell you all that expensive gear all over again. Thank you for helping keep Nikon solvent for all the rest of us so Nikon can continue to innovate and produce new products. As for me, my plan it much more modest. I am going to make the transition earlier and not purchase the super telephotos at all. So far I have tried the Z6, found it adequate with the upgraded eye AF and have been purchasing all the Z glass as it comes out. I will add the Z9 body no matter what megapixel it has. If it is 50 mp and a Z8 comes out with 80 mp or more that will tempt me but I expect the Z9 to be so robust and so reliable that I won't need a backup pro-build body for it. So the only reason for a Z8 in my case would because I am being seduced by 80 megapixels which won't show up in my images because I don't expect to ever print larger than poster size (which I have done fine with full frame 36mp and 45mp sensors). One other possible use case for an 80 mp body fir me would be to avoid the highly expensive super tele glass for things like birding by simply being able to crop tighter. I keep hearing full frame will "top out" at about 100 mp so Nikon has some room yet for additional higher megapixel bodies. I really would like to see a 50 mp Z9 and a higher resolution 80mp+ Z9r but suspect Nikon will keep the series 8 line (D800, D850, etc) line of highest mp bodies in the Z8 series instead of producing a Z9r.

WestEndFoto

donaldejose said:

WEF: Nikon must love customers like you! They can sell you all the high end expensive F mount bodies and glass and then when you realize all prime and zoom Z mount glass is better they can sell you all that expensive gear all over again. Thank you for helping keep Nikon solvent for all the rest of us so Nikon can continue to innovate and produce new products. As for me, my plan it much more modest. I am going to make the transition earlier and not purchase the super telephotos at all. So far I have tried the Z6, found it adequate with the upgraded eye AF and have been purchasing all the Z glass as it comes out. I will add the Z9 body no matter what megapixel it has. If it is 50 mp and a Z8 comes out with 80 mp or more that will tempt me but I expect the Z9 to be so robust and so reliable that I won't need a backup pro-build body for it. So the only reason for a Z8 in my case would because I am being seduced by 80 megapixels which won't show up in my images because I don't expect to ever print larger than poster size (which I have done fine with full frame 36mp and 45mp sensors). One other possible use case for an 80 mp body fir me would be to avoid the highly expensive super tele glass for things like birding by simply being able to crop tighter. I keep hearing full frame will "top out" at about 100 mp so Nikon has some room yet for additional higher megapixel bodies. I really would like to see a 50 mp Z9 and a higher resolution 80mp+ Z9r but suspect Nikon will keep the series 8 line (D800, D850, etc) line of highest mp bodies in the Z8 series instead of producing a Z9r.

Oh the Z glass is definitely better than the F glass. But here is the thing, I will be focussing on the holy trinity with the F bodies. They are sharp, but not sharp like the primes. And for the holy trinity, I am shooting events, where resolution is not that important. I see no point in spending money again to get a performance improvement.

PB_PM

For event shooting the F-mount glass is more than good enough on the Z bodies anyway. If I can get good results on from the F-mount holy trinity on the Z6, the Z9 should be great.