Z6 ii and Z7 ii

tc88

@PB_PM, I wouldn't call that a spin off. It's still a wholly owned subsidiary I believe. A spin off means a completely separately company with its own shareholders who are usually initially populated with the "parent" company's shareholders, but then can invest and divest independently in one company or another.

PB_PM

I've seen the term used in both cases, so it's a toss up.

donaldejose

Rockwell's considered judgment that Canon is ahead of Nikon has lead to all this discussion of the relative strength and future of Nikon. I doubt that discussion is important to most of the people on this forum. We are Nikon users and will be buying Nikon products long into the future; whether or not Rockwell thinks Canon products are better. The Z lenses are great and there will be plenty of bodies coming which are more than capable of doing what we need and want to do with those great Z lenses. Personally, I do not care what Nikon's market share is as long as I can do what I want to do with the products Nikon produces. Most of us don't need the high ticket low volume exotic lenses. That "wide open" f 1.4 bokeh is a fad and most professional portrait photographs will be taken at f2.8 to f4 for f5.6 anyway. The f1.8 Z lenses are fully adequate and if you want extreme bokeh there is a 50mm f1.2 and a 58mm f0.95. I have not heard of problems using the super teles with the ftz adaptor. Basically, I see no real problems with Nikon equipment. Next year a few more bodies will appear; hopefully both a Z8 and a Z9 body. We can revisit the issue after they are out. I suggest, and predict, those bodies will address all of the desires we have been asking for: Z8 high megapixel and Z9 integrated vertical grip like the pro D3, D4, D5 and D6 series. We will see.

mhedges

donaldejose said:

R The Z8 and Z9 will be the "big deal" we all will like and want.

Eh I don't know about that. I think they do need an action camera to fill out the line, but I'm not sold on the need for a high MP version separate from the Z7 line. I know some folks like WEF want it and that's fine but I think they will live and die on the success (or lack thereof) of Z6/Z7 (and various successors).

WestEndFoto said:

My biggest issue with Rockwell is statements like this:

I'd be very careful before sinking any more money into Nikon's system — it's not 1979 anymore. I get tired of fielding all the technical support calls that Nikon can't solve and how ticked I am that Nikon's sloppy system with numerous technical incompatibilities means that half my lenses won't autofocus on the FTZ - while every...….

And half his lenses can't autofocus - that is because they are grandpa's lenses - the kid is E, the dad is G and Grandpa is D - Nikon's FTZ adapter brings two generations of lens technology from F to Z. Is there any Nikon D lens launched in the last 20 years? Cmon, I will shed a tear for my 135 DC 2.0 and 200 Micro 4.0, but only a tear.

Agree. And since when does Rockwell answer calls for Nikon's tech support line?

Honestly I do expect (based on nothing but gut feeling) that they will eventually come out with a AFDtZ type adapter. But that will be part of the final effort to bring F mount holdouts over. Don't forget it took Sony 7 years to come out with their slick new adapter, and it only works with a couple of the newest camera bodies.

My take on AFDtZ is this (as I posted on the blog a while ago):

Half of those folks complaining about it have no interest in actually buying one. Of the rest 25% would theoretically be interested but will decide not to buy based on price or various nitpicks. That leaves 25% left who might buy one.

photobunny said:

What would be the point of two bodies that do exactly the same as the Z6II and Z7II? Like a pro sports body makes a lot of sense, but if we are getting more MP it'll be the Z7III. It would be like if we had a 600(Z5), 780(Z6), 850(Z7), 950(Z8) and 6(Z9), I don't see the point of so many bodies competing with themselves.

Agree.

WestEndFoto said:

-square 43.3mm by 43.3mm sensor - this is the size required to rotate a 24mm by 36mm crop to any angle and have it remain completely inside the sensor - it would enable a circular image to be captured or a 24mm by 36mm in both the landscape or portrait orientation which would eliminate the need to rotate the camera 90 degrees
-internal ND filters

A square sensor would be very cool but I don't think it's possible due to the position of the lens electric contacts on the top of the mount opening. They would have had to squeeze them in on the sides somewhere to do that.

Also don't see how ND filters can happen on a FF body without it being enormous.

WestEndFoto

Some interesting discussion here. Mhedges, you might be right on the electric contacts. And I acknowledge that I am really thinking outside of the box and would concur and that the probability of a square sensor is less than 50%. I also acknowledge that I am in the same camp as many D500 users pining for their special upgrade. But Nikon had a D3X. I can only hope that they do the same thing again.

My main nit pick on the Z7 was the grip and cards. There is also a bit of cheese missing. An extra button will fix that. We will see what the Z7 II looks like in a few weeks. I really could not have imagined buying into the Nikon Z line without solving the grip and card issue - I am glad that Nikon is fixing that.

I have four use cases. The first, events and action, is covered by my f-mount. The second, IQ no compromise, is covered by my f-mount until I can't resist some of the new lenses. The third, weekend and vacation, will be covered by the Z7 II with a grip. The fourth, a discrete full frame option for the weekdays would be covered perfectly by a Z50 with a full frame sensor (Z3) and compact primes. My Coolpix A wet my appetite for something small and I still carry it.

I am going to to see if Nikon comes out with the Z3 I want. If a couple of years pass and they don't, I will evaluate what is on the market and determine how I will address my other three use cases. I have a difficult time seeing Sony fit into the picture, but Canon might.

WestEndFoto

PS:
Nikon will do well. My next stock tranche will be equal amounts of Canon, Sony and Nikon stock. That will be interesting to watch.

spraynpray

WestEndFoto said:

PS:
Nikon will do well. My next stock tranche will be equal amounts of Canon, Sony and Nikon stock. That will be interesting to watch.

Maybe a new thread for this stocks and share talk. I would like to see that thread WEF with monthly updates.

WestEndFoto

spraynpray said:

WestEndFoto said:

PS:
Nikon will do well. My next stock tranche will be equal amounts of Canon, Sony and Nikon stock. That will be interesting to watch.

Maybe a new thread for this stocks and share talk. I would like to see that thread WEF with monthly updates.

That is a good idea Spraynpray. When I get myself organized, I will do that.

WestEndFoto

photobunny said:

What would be the point of two bodies that do exactly the same as the Z6II and Z7II? Like a pro sports body makes a lot of sense, but if we are getting more MP it'll be the Z7III. It would be like if we had a 600(Z5), 780(Z6), 850(Z7), 950(Z8) and 6(Z9), I don't see the point of so many bodies competing with themselves.

What do you think of this Photobunny?

https://nikonrumors.com/2020/10/06/first-set-of-rumored-nikon-z9-mirrorless-camera-specifications.aspx/

photobunny

WestEndFoto said:

photobunny said:

What would be the point of two bodies that do exactly the same as the Z6II and Z7II? Like a pro sports body makes a lot of sense, but if we are getting more MP it'll be the Z7III. It would be like if we had a 600(Z5), 780(Z6), 850(Z7), 950(Z8) and 6(Z9), I don't see the point of so many bodies competing with themselves.

What do you think of this Photobunny?

https://nikonrumors.com/2020/10/06/first-set-of-rumored-nikon-z9-mirrorless-camera-specifications.aspx/

It looks like a pro sports and wildlife body and the expectation of the Z9 to replace the D6. 46MP seems a bit high, but if they think 8k is now required then there isn't another option. If Canon doesn't get a RF 500mm f/4.0 or f/5.6 out before I have money to buy a 500mm PF, then it'll probably be added to my shopping cart next autumn to replace my Z6.

rmp

Will the new "II" focus be significantly better?

photobunny

rmp said:

Will the new "II" focus be significantly better?

Well the Z6 and Z7 with FW3 and traditional AF modes focus faster and more accurately than just about any DSLR already. What we are expecting out of the mark II's is that they have the CPU grunt to get tracking AF, eye AF, and animal(eye) AF past the demo phase and up to the magic phase of the R5/R6.

WestEndFoto

rmp said:

Will the new "II" focus be significantly better?

Read this review by Thom on the Z5 that accompanies his book on the Z5. You have to scroll down to the auto-focus section.

I think it corrects a lot of erroneous information circulating around the internet. And he does not deny that there are improvements to be made.

One thing can be summed up reading his comments in this an other articles. If you are happy with decent focus performance and want the camera to do the work, then the Sony is for you. If you are willing to put in the work and learn how it actually works, then you should look hard at the Nikon, especially given the improvements that Nikon will be making as it iterates its models and updates its firmware.

Note that this is they guy that writes books on the cameras and literally spent hundreds of hours with the camera. I think he is highly credible as a source - certainly more credible than somebody who fooled around with a camera for a week (or even a day) and then wrote a review on it.

https://www.zsystemuser.com/z-mount-cameras/nikon-z-camera-reviews/nikon-z5-camera-review.html

rmp

Thanks WestEndFoto and photobunny. Actually, I am pleased with the AF on my Z7 and I do read Hogan's web site regularly. Hogan's work caused me to work on "anticipating" action more than I once did.

This was what I wanted to see:
"What we are expecting out of the mark II's is that they have the CPU grunt to get tracking AF, eye AF, and animal(eye) AF past the demo phase and up to the magic phase of the R5/R6."

mhedges

I find anticipating the action really is the key for my soccer (football to a lot of you folks) pics. It helps tremendously both with getting the focus nailed and timing the shot just right.

WestEndFoto

mhedges said:

I find anticipating the action really is the key for my soccer (football to a lot of you folks) pics. It helps tremendously both with getting the focus nailed and timing the shot just right.

I took a sports photography class as part of the degree that I am working on. The first part of the course was about anticipating the action. The instructor was very good. He has several covers on a Canadian national magazine during the Sochi Olympics.

Pistnbroke

The latest Nikon release is not too encouraging in that it refers to "tweaks" to the focus system particularly eye AF . If they don't get it up to D850 levels Nikon will be dead. However we wait,we see, we dispair.

WestEndFoto

Pistbbroke, you are not succumbing to this Nikon is dead lunacy are you.

DaveyJ

I may get an updated Z6 OR whatever but await the Z6II stats and pricing.

mhedges

"If they don't get it up to D850 levels Nikon will be dead"

I don't get that statement. How many Canon cameras were at D850 levels? Are they dead yet? Or Sony or Fuji?

It would be great, sure, but I don't think its a make or break thing.

photobunny

Lets see the second gen cameras before deciding if Nikon are doomed. Canon's R and RP are way worse cameras than the Z6 and Z7.. its not like Nikon' beta bodies where so far behind. Cricky show a Z6/Z7 user with FW1 a Z6/Z7 with FM3 and a bit of tape on the label, they'd think it was a new camera.

tc88

mhedges said:

"If they don't get it up to D850 levels Nikon will be dead"

I don't get that statement. How many Canon cameras were at D850 levels? Are they dead yet? Or Sony or Fuji?

It would be great, sure, but I don't think its a make or break thing.

I agree, I don't think the Z7ii AF performance will be the make or break thing for Nikon. Honestly, I don't think anything Nikon puts out in the near future will qualify as make or break.

Pistnbroke

Nikon know they have a problem with the Z focus system so to bring out a camera that does not fix it seems a bit insane.

WestEndFoto

I think that many people forget that Canon and Nikon have been leapfrogging each other for 40 years. And for the first time in history, Sony has managed to leapfrog Canon and Nikon on AF - but that is about it.

Nobody was doomed when they got leapfrogged. It is easy to forget that if you got leapfrogged, you probably leapfrogged someone on the next cycle.

But there are lots of people with either little experience, short memories or a low IQ that don't see this.

And this is why I regard cameras as mere photon detectors and assert that lenses are where the important action is - cameras being a distraction. Any material complaint that I have on the photon detector in this generation will be solved in the next generation. Does not mean that I think the photon detectors are not important. But people spend to much time whining about them.

tc88

WestEndFoto said:

Nobody was doomed when they got leapfrogged. It is easy to forget that if you got leapfrogged, you probably leapfrogged someone on the next cycle.

But there are lots of people with either little experience, short memories or a low IQ that don't see this.

Well film cameras are very different from digital cameras in terms of expertise required. Has Canon leapfrogged Nikon in image quality in the last 10 years? And is 10 years a long time?

To think Nikon will leapfrog Sony in AF in the next iteration of mirrorless is pure wishful thing, because in mirrorless, the ceiling for AF is the sensor because it determines how fast the data can be pumped out.

To think Nikon can somehow produce a better sensor on Sony fabs than Sony can produce internally is pure nonsense. Whatever technology Nikon is allowed to use, Sony will have tested first. So unless Nikon finds another fab (say Towerjazz) and that fab somehow manage to produce better sensors than Sony, there is no chance Nikon's sensor will be better. And in semiconductor manufacturing, while leapfrogging happens, it's very rare.