Z6 ii and Z7 ii

WestEndFoto

tc88 said:

@WestEndFoto, I'm referring to the sensor chip technology, not the generic technology that manufactures DSP or CPU. Sony is the leader in sensor chip technology, and as long as Nikon has to manufacture through Sony fabs, there is no way Nikon can lead.

Because whatever chip technology it's allowed to use, it has to be given by Sony after tested by Sony in its fabs. So unless another company like TowerJazz can surpass Sony someday which is a slim chance currently, there is just little chance.

Now this is not an area where I have expertise, but I think that is safe to say that some of the IP in Sony's chips is licenced by Nikon. Sony getting ahead may depend to some extent on Nikon IP. I think that this is why Canon does not, to my knowledge, do business with Sony for sensors.

photobunny

WestEndFoto said:

I think that this is why Canon does not, to my knowledge, do business with Sony for sensors.

Canon are huge and have their own production for sensors, Nikon could go to Canon potentially. Though as is stands the Z6 sensor is a 'off the shelf' Sony sensor and the Z7/D850 sensor is a Nikon designed sensor.

I am pretty sure that Sony wouldn't knick the design as it would be pretty easy to spot and by working with Nikon, Sony gets to compete with Canon indirectly. Their market share combined is just teetering on being a threat, Sony likely gets a lot of economy of scale benefits from having a big partner to make chips for.

rmp

@photobunny, I look forward to your side-by-side comparison. I will end up with a Z7/24-70 f4 and a Z6II/70-200 f2.8 pair so I cannot do an actual comparison.

mhedges

photobunny said:

Canon are huge and have their own production for sensors, Nikon could go to Canon potentially. Though as is stands the Z6 sensor is a 'off the shelf' Sony sensor and the Z7/D850 sensor is a Nikon designed sensor.

I am pretty sure that Sony wouldn't knick the design as it would be pretty easy to spot and by working with Nikon, Sony gets to compete with Canon indirectly. Their market share combined is just teetering on being a threat, Sony likely gets a lot of economy of scale benefits from having a big partner to make chips for.

I can't see Nikon going to Canon for sensors. That would be like Pepsi buying their syrup from Coke. I do agree on that last point - I think the relationship between Nikon and Sony as far as sensors is quite complicated and intertwined, and it would hurt both companies if that totally ended.

I do think Nikon should try to get some sensors from someone else (if possible) to keep Sony honest.

It's not at all clear to me how much influence Sony's camera business has on its sensor business, and specifically the choice to withhold any tech from competitors. I have seen numerous mentions that they are basically completely independent divisions, which I'm not sure I believe. But I don't think there is any evidence that Sony has sensor products they won't sell to Nikon or others.

Pistnbroke

So what we are saying is that the combination of two processors with the current sensor is as far as the Z7 45MP scenario will go . We will need a different sensor and better processor for the Z8/9

WestEndFoto

Thom is on a roundtable with Photo Creative Academy this Wednesday the day after the launch. The link is on his website. Should be interesting.

tc88

PB_PM said:

Do really believe that the D5s, D850 and the D7500 use the exact same chip? They don’t, even the part numbers are different, but they are all labeled Expeed 5.

I would say all Expeed 5 are manufactured on a same process node. They may be binned differently, that is, the faster chips may be used on one camera, and slower chips used on another, thus different SKUs. But that will be about it. This is common practice in chip production. I will go a step further and say that a lot times there may not be even any intrinsic performance difference. Just hard coded to run at different frequencies for different cameras.

WestEndFoto said:

Now this is not an area where I have expertise, but I think that is safe to say that some of the IP in Sony's chips is licenced by Nikon. Sony getting ahead may depend to some extent on Nikon IP. I think that this is why Canon does not, to my knowledge, do business with Sony for sensors.

"not an area where I have expertise", and "it's safe to say", are just illogical to be said at the same time. BTW, Canon does use Sony sensors, on some point and shoot.

Also BTW, Canon sensor is behind has nothing to do with whether it wants to license Nikon's IP or not, rather Canon still wants to develop its own fab which has its limitations and hope someday it can catch up or even lead, because it doesn't want to go fabless and has its fate controlled by someone else, especially a competitor.

WestEndFoto

tc88 said:

PB_PM said:

Do really believe that the D5s, D850 and the D7500 use the exact same chip? They don’t, even the part numbers are different, but they are all labeled Expeed 5.

I would say all Expeed 5 are manufactured on a same process node. They may be binned differently, that is, the faster chips may be used on one camera, and slower chips used on another, thus different SKUs. But that will be about it. This is common practice in chip production. I will go a step further and say that a lot times there may not be even any intrinsic performance difference. Just hard coded to run at different frequencies for different cameras.

WestEndFoto said:

Now this is not an area where I have expertise, but I think that is safe to say that some of the IP in Sony's chips is licenced by Nikon. Sony getting ahead may depend to some extent on Nikon IP. I think that this is why Canon does not, to my knowledge, do business with Sony for sensors.

"not an area where I have expertise", and "it's safe to say", are just illogical to be said at the same time. BTW, Canon does use Sony sensors, on some point and shoot.

Also BTW, Canon sensor is behind has nothing to do with whether it wants to license Nikon's IP or not, rather Canon still wants to develop its own fab which has its limitations and hope someday it can catch up or even lead, because it doesn't want to go fabless and has its fate controlled by someone else, especially a competitor.

Sure it is logical TC88. I am not an expert because I would have to be within Nikon to be such an expert. But it is safe to say it because a variety of sources that seem credible, including Thom, have asserted it. And if you and Thom say contradictory things, I am going to say it is safe to say that Thom is right, based on my personal judgement of how much I know about Thom and how little I know about you.

This is getting tiring. I enjoy chatting about our mutual interest, but if you are going to drag my thought process through the mud that I am attempting to articulate better (in this case where I am guessing/estimating/making a judgement and what I know as a fact) based on feedback that I have received from you, then I am not going to bother doing that anymore.

Further, what was your point? It certainly didn't have anything to do with my assertion that Sony's sensors depend somewhat on Nikon IP. Do you even know anything about that? Or was the point of your comment simply try to make a comment I made seem less credible even though you had no credible way of accomplishing that (or else you would have attached the comment and not the commenter)?

I am going to sit back and observer for a while, rather than participate.

PB_PM

tc88 said:

I would say all Expeed 5 are manufactured on a same process node.

That's a given, since they are all the same architecture. They would use the lower binned chips in lower end cameras, same as PC parts, which is why the high end cameras always come out first. None of that is the point, the point was that die shrink does not equal new name. It's done in CPUs and video cards for marketing purposes, but doesn't mean Nikon is doing that with Expeed. Microsoft would often do die shrinks with it's chips (in gaming consoles and the Surface) without making any marketing changes for example.

tc88

WestEndFoto said:

Sony getting ahead may depend to some extent on Nikon IP.

@WestEndFoto, dig out what Tom wrote that supports such statement and I want to read.

WestEndFoto

tc88 said:

WestEndFoto said:

Sony getting ahead may depend to some extent on Nikon IP.

@WestEndFoto, dig out what Tom wrote that supports such statement and I want to read.

I am not spending an afternoon digging through over a hundred articles by Thom to verify what I know I have read.

tc88

@PB_PM, let's look at your logic.

I said Expeed with same name will be on a same process node.

You argued that it can be a die shrink on a different node and still called the same name. To argue that, you bring out Expeed 5 as example that there are different variants.

I pointed out all those Expeed 5 "variants" are on a same node and don't include die shrink on a different node.

You agree.

Of course there can always be exceptions, but I think the logical answer is pretty clear.

BTW, MSFT never marketed the chip versions on its xbox from my understanding. And most importantly, it has a much bigger volume that can be used to spread out the fixed cost of each chip revision.

WestEndFoto

But if you want to go down a rabbit hole, taking what you read with a grain of salt regardless of whether they support or contradict what you think, I might read articles like this.

https://www.eoshd.com/news/imaging-resource-takes-a-look-inside-nikons-sensor-design-studios-solves-sony-misconceptions/

tc88

WestEndFoto said:

I am not spending an afternoon digging through over a hundred articles by Thom to verify what I know I have read.

Haha, now this does not mean to be a personal attack, but rather my honest assessment of your personality.

"not an area where I have expertise", and "it's safe to say", actually represents mentality of your posts very well.

You don't know many things you posted, but you write as if they are facts while they were merely wishful thinkings. When things are pointed out to be wrong, you look for hypothesis why your arguments can still stand, and keep on throwing up various other possible explanations. And obviously there is no use to refute them one by one, since you can throw up another one as easily.

Just because many things are possible, doesn't mean they are remotely close to reality. It's like you can argue you have a zombie under your house, and no matter how absurdly it is, no one can prove it wrong unless they dig your ground up. And if people indeed spend the effort to dig it up, then you can easily change to a theory that it must be from your neighbor's ground and everyone is back to square one. Hopefully you get the picture.

tc88

WestEndFoto said:

But if you want to go down a rabbit hole, taking what you read with a grain of salt regardless of whether they support or contradict what you think, I might read articles like this.

https://www.eoshd.com/news/imaging-resource-takes-a-look-inside-nikons-sensor-design-studios-solves-sony-misconceptions/

Ok, I read it, the last paragraph is all I need to know that it's a marketing piece. Here is what it wrote.

You can be sure that if Nikon makes their own sensors for the upcoming FX Z-mount mirrorless cameras, they will be true Nikon custom silicon and not just a “greatest hits” of other people’s technology. Indeed it might not even matter if they are manufactured in facilities owned by Sony, Toshiba or TowerJazz

First, sensor design is very fab specific. Even the general digital design is fab specific that Apple has to design differently between TSMC and Samsung fabs.

Second, if it's true, you can bet Nikon would have jumped to TowerJazz completely and I'm pretty sure they can get a better deal there. So far, the top end Nikon sensors are all manufactured in Sony fabs.

When it can use somebody other than Sony for its top end sensors is when there is hope for Nikon to lead.

spraynpray

@tc88 @WestEndFoto

OK guys this is getting hard to read. Both of you contribute good posts except when you interact with each other. Please keep contributing, but for our sanity, I think it's best if you don't respond or refer to each others post. That way readers can read and assess your posts without the stress.

I will have to delete any future posts where you interact as you have in the last few posts.

dpidude

@spraynpray A+++

tc88

@spraynpray, handbagging at the dawn.

tc88

Now if the rumor is correct, looks like it's the same size, and they managed to squeeze in two card slots. I remember there were people who tried to find excuse for Nikon before that suggested two card slots with one XQD size is not possible in the Z6/7 body size.

mhedges

It's slightly deeper similar to the Z5 body. Also EVF hump looks a little different. But other than that basically no change externally.

Pistnbroke

Looks different so where have you seen it ?

mhedges

There are some posts on the main blog showing comparisons.

tc88

I just realized that Z6/Z7 don't have the bracket button. Now it does still have the function buttons. I'm wondering if the function button can be mapped to the "bracket" purpose and you can set the bracketing without going into menu at all? Basically, just the button and the two dials to change the frame count and EV offset as is allowed on DSLR. Also does the bracket info show up on the top screen? I suppose it does?

Anyone with a Z can chime in? Thanks.

photobunny

Stand out upgrades from my Z6 that would make day to day shooting better. Animal Eye AF on Wide group AF mode, battery grip, extra FPS, bigger buffer.

The question will be if the animal eye AF is a wee bit quicker and can detect more species. Though regardless, nice upgrades well worth a mark II.

If I feel limited by my Z6 I'll upgrade but traditionally have went for odd number upgrades.

On the Z7 side I might wait for a Z7III with a new sensor, the 45 MP sensor in it is already one of the best when you need the MP's but I am betting Nikon have a brand new sensor for 2021 in the works.

And a Z6II I'll hold off as long as I can for a pre gripped D6 replacement as long as I can, but I'll probably end up with a Z6II as soon as my 500mm f/5.6 turns up. The grip, FPS, wide area animal eye AF, and bigger buffer are worth the money and it is like a months 'pocket money'.

Pistnbroke

I dont know how much more we can learn at 12 noon than is given in this petapixel/Nikon Video ..seems to cover it all ...

https://petapixel.com/2020/10/13/nikon-unveils-z6-ii-and-z7-ii-with-dual-card-slots-4k-60p-video-and-more/