D600 Dust/Oil/Lubricant Issue discussion/Discontinuation and price reductions

Sato

I'm rather angry right now,
So I contacted the shop I bought my D600 from and asked if they agreed to my offer to bring the camera in to the local Nikon Service Center myself saving them the handling and shipping costs and saving me a lot of time waiting for nothing.
Te reason I requested there permission is because of Dutch Consumer Law (It states that the seller is responsible for warranty claims at least in the first year of warranty. (or something like that))

There answer? No, you have to bring it in to us. (Either drop it of at the nearest store (which is about the same distance as the Nikon Service Center) or ship it to there warehouse)
And with that I've lost all my confidence in my issue with the camera being resolved and all my trust in this chain of stores.
I can't think of any reason for not letting me drop my camera off with Nikon Service in person other then that they intend to try and fix it themselves (which there obviously not allowed to do by Nikon.) or not at all.

I'm going to let this rage cool down first and after that I'll send them another email stating that I either want a darn good explanation as to why I'm not allowed to bring it into Nikon Service myself and that I only intend to drop it off at there store or ship it to there warehouse if they agree to give me my money back. (As I refuse to sit around waiting for nothing because they forgot to ship it off to Nikon or some other lame excuse.)

I paid 1404,- Euro for a DSLR camera I haven't been able to enjoy or use, All because Nikon refuses to admit a mistake and fix it for good. (This change of heart comes from the seller being an ass and the rumors of a D610)
All this purchase has brought me so far is allot of frustration and a complete loss of interest in photography, And I'm not happy about either one of those.

donaldejose

KR has no dust issue with his D600. "Worry-warts who don't even have a D600 keep asking me about dust in my D600. Nope, not seen it . . . "

spraynpray

Shame he doesn't have a higher credibility rating really... $-)

heartyfisher

Had an interesting chat with another D600 user today .. he has no problems with the dust issue. He is a wedding photog and owns the D3S D800 D600 and D700.
He also owns the F2.8 Trinity of lenses + the 85 1.4 and a sigma 105 macro. He says that the D600 is his most used camera! The D800 files are too large and thus troublesome and the older camera's IQ is not as good.

donaldejose

heartyfisher: thanks for posting. Any more NR members hearing positive reports of the D600 they can post here for some balance?

I notice that other Nikon user sites don't seem to have as many negative "dust issue" posts as NR has (I just checked again this morning). If it is such a terrible and common problem why isn't there a long post of D600 dust issue complaints on all Nikon user sites? My argument (speculation and not proven because Nikon has not released the data it must have) is that the dust issue is real but overblown and scares people away from a fine camera. True, it does exist in a small number of D600 bodies, sometimes to the extent of making those bodies unreliable and therefore unusable professionally which is a terrible shame on Nikon. However, it generally can be resolved by frequent cleanings during the first 10,000 shutter actuations (as seems to be true for my D600 so far) and the majority of D600 owners report no dust issue whatsoever. Perhaps after the D610 is released the price of used D600 bodies will drop to less than $1,000 and become a great buy for those willing to clean their own sensor.

MikeGunter

Hi all,

@donaldejose - you're introducing facts not truly supported by concrete evidence - just we written suppositions.

These data samples are snapshots that could be a blind thought from man's from his touching of an elephant's trunk. I wouldn't make much of it.

Other than describing what a big warm turd could be. ;-)

My best,

Mike

heartyfisher

LOL ! ..

Actually to summarize I have met 3 D600 users only.. and 1 of them has the dust issue (But he is willing to live with it !) So of my sample of 3 its 33% with the problem which is VERY high!

But from the guy i met today it seems that if you do have a D600 with no issue it may actually be overall the best value Nikon camera!

Ironheart

@MikeGunter, here are a few "facts" as far as us blind men in the room with the elephant can tell 1) Nikon has made somewhere north of 100,000 D600 cameras (likely even more, but let's not go there). 2) About 120 different people have posted on this thread, about half of which are reporting dust/oil issues, and about half of those have ultimately been resolved 3) The vast majority of folks that have spots on their sensor will never know, regardless of make or model 4) some quick google searches with number of results returned: "d600 dust oil issue"- 120K hits "d800 dust oil issue"- 100K hits "5dmii dust oil issue" 300K hits

spraynpray

@donaldjose: If it isn't that real, then why the D610? Nikon wouldn't cut short a products life for nothing.

tc88

About 120 different people have posted on this thread, about half of which are reporting dust/oil issues, and about half of those have ultimately been resolved

Do the other half commentors (of 120 that you quoted) report that they don't have the issue or if they even own the camera?

Also assuming the odds of repairs being needed after buying a brand new equipment is 50%, and the odds of that repair being successful is only 50% of that, should people be at a minimum be informed about what they are getting into before buying? I think that's the whole purpose of this thread. To get people make informed decisions.

donaldejose

spraynpray. I never said the "dust issue" was not real. I have said the issue is "real" but suspect only for a small number of D600 bodies and many of those can be cleaned by the owner without downtime (like mine). When the D610 arrives, if the rumor is even true, we will see what Nikon has changed. The existence of a D610 remains only a rumor at this point. Nikon could just be putting a new name on the same old product (with whatever caused the dust issue in some replaced) to escape a bad reputation; deserved or not. Or maybe there will not be a D610. If there is one I would like to see AF cover more area in the finder and a larger buffer. And as to KR's credibility: he has no reason to lie about dust spots on his D600 sensor. If his D600 had such an issue I am sure he would be the first to criticize Nikon about it. KR seems to enjoy overstating many of his opinions and many of his criticisms. If his D600 develops a dust issue I am sure we will hear about it.

Ironheart

@tc88, my point was that 120 is a minuet fraction of the total, and no where near representative or statistically significant. Even if you take all of the people that have complained on the entire Internet it is a blip on the scope, and hardly conclusive. The 5dm2 has had more dust/oil issues than the D600. Do the research :-) The D600 issue is almost nothing more than an Internet meme. Note I said almost. :-)

bolt

@tc88 - I had 5 D600s in my hand from different lots S/Ns and all of them had dust/oil issues.
I also checked at least other 5 D600s in the local stores around my area and all of them had the sensor dirty.
Today I own one with S/N 3076x, and I have about 50 spots after 1600 shots. I decided to keep this one and deal with the issue. I don't think you can run any statistical analysis since the sample that we can build over the web is very little, but from my personal experience (all the D600s that I checked) I can deduce that the dust/oil problem is pervasive.

donaldejose

bolt: WOW, 10 out of 10 D600 bodies you personally checked all had dust/oil issues? That is pretty hard to believe considering all the other D600 users who are not complaining. It makes me think you might find spots anywhere you looked for them. I have not had a total of 50 spots in almost 8,000 exposures now. I wonder if you would find spots on D800 and D4 bodies also? Have you given these other bodies the same check? I do hope your D600 dust issues resolve quickly with a few cleanings.

tc88

my point was that 120 is a minuet fraction of the total, and no where near representative or statistically significant.

Actually, 120 samples coupled with 50% is quite statistically significant. For whatever it is worth, I just asked someone who took a statistics class recently to do the computation, and the answer is that in this case, you are 95% confident that the real fail rate is 40-60%.

donaldejose

A 40 to 60% failure rate is terrible! But if that really were the failure rate I would think you would be seeing tens of thousands of people complaining (since over 100,000 D600s have apparently been sold) and we don't see that. We see less than 1,000 people complaining which suggests more like a 1% failure rate.

heartyfisher

Thats consistant with my sample of 3.. ( LOL but with a sample of 3 you can deduce anything. )

Ade

- In the early days of the D600, the folks at LensRentals.com received twenty (20) D600s, and ALL of them were affected by the dust/oil issue

- Subsequently, LensRentals.com acquired 40 additional D600 and I understand that all of them were similarly affected

- We can conclude that at least for some early batches of the D600, the "failure rate" approached 100%

- The failure rate today for new D600s is unknown. Unfortunately, the kind folks at LensRentals do not seem willing to buy 60 more D600s so we can get more recent test data.

- However, from numerous recent complaints in this forum alone, we know that at least some brand new D600s today are still affected by this oil issue. There are also recent reports that Nikon has not been able to effectively repair D600s sent in for service

- Since Nikon does not seem to have full control of this issue even now, it would not surprise me if the percentage of new D600s affected by this issue remains very high.

spraynpray

bolt: WOW, 10 out of 10 D600 bodies you personally checked all had dust/oil issues? That is pretty hard to believe considering all the other D600 users who are not complaining. It makes me think you might find spots anywhere you looked for them. I have not had a total of 50 spots in almost 8,000 exposures now. I wonder if you would find spots on D800 and D4 bodies also? Have you given these other bodies the same check? I do hope your D600 dust issues resolve quickly with a few cleanings.

C'mon Donald, why is it so hard for you to accept that your D600 is not representative of the majority or at least a significant proportion of the others? Posting for balance is one thing but accusing somebody of seeing spots where there are none? What checks could the guy do on a D4 or D800 that saw spots where there were none? Are you saying that he has spots before his eyes - because those kind of spots move around as you watch but D600 spots arrive while you watch!

bbarb

bolt: WOW, 10 out of 10 D600 bodies you personally checked all had dust/oil issues? That is pretty hard to believe considering all the other D600 users who are not complaining. It makes me think you might find spots anywhere you looked for them. I have not had a total of 50 spots in almost 8,000 exposures now. I wonder if you would find spots on D800 and D4 bodies also? Have you given these other bodies the same check? I do hope your D600 dust issues resolve quickly with a few cleanings.

@donaldejose: Since i have done this check my honest answer is yes i can find spots on all cameras i have tested so far. which are 2 50ds, 5d mark II, 5D, D800,D800E and of course my d600.
The difference is that on other cameras i have 1-2 spots which always appear in the same place and they do not multiply. But in d600 almost every new image has more spots than the previous one. I consider it almost impossible for a camera that is used to have zero spots. and even if it has zero spots, after a while in some point eventualy dust will find the way to the sensor.
But d600 issue, has nothing to do with that.

bbarb

A 40 to 60% failure rate is terrible! But if that really were the failure rate I would think you would be seeing tens of thousands of people complaining (since over 100,000 D600s have apparently been sold) and we don't see that. We see less than 1,000 people complaining which suggests more like a 1% failure rate.

@Donaldjose: ooopssss! its you again!!! I have been reading all new posts in this topic, since i havent loged in recently, and i decided to reply in these 2 posts. And i noticed that both of them are yours lololol..sorry for that.

Your calculation is not correct. First of all a question, from where do you have the info that 100,000 d600 bodies are sold??
Nevertheless D600 is the first full frame step for many many users. Its relatively ''cheap'' and is the No1 choice of ''rich'' amateurs and enthusiasts as well. So dont be sure that all of them are able to see these spots.
Keep also in mind that even pros i.e wedding photographers, wildlife, sports and so on will never see the spots as well because of the use they do to the camera. Keep also in mind that a lot of people do not examine their images at 100% actual size, but they examine it at fit to screen size on their laptop which depending the subject is not so easy to see spots always. Keep also in mind that a lot of people sold their D600 because they didnt want to deal with such problems, and keep also in mind that not evryone is in the mood of posting chating in forums and so in. D600 is a great backup camera as well so not all of the sold cvameras are actually shooting.
In the end, dont expect from evryone to behave as we do. a lot of folks out there they dont even know that their d600 is full of spots, and their customers will never see it as well.

donaldejose

"The D600 is the best digital full-frame ever made by Nikon." Posted today from KR (one of his typical oversimplified overstatements lacking all the qualifiers).

I do hope whatever "junk" is in bbarb's D600 (and others with the issue - however many there are) all comes out with a few cleanings (as seems to have been true for me, so far at least) so he (and they) can fully enjoy the camera. I also hope there is a D610 and it resolves all issues (no dust, wider AF area, and larger buffer). Finally, I hope used D600 prices fall to less than $1,000 so we have a good and cheap FX body for those willing to clean the sensor until all internal contamination is gone. Shame on Nikon for allowing this dust issue to get so far out of control. Saving face is one thing (and apparently important in Japanese culture) but mistreating customers so badly is entirely another thing which kills reputation and future business.

As far as noticing the spots in normal usage goes, I can concur with bbarb's comments from my own experience. I first noticed two black spots in the upper left corner of a D600 image when looking at some light background portraits on my monitor - just two spots which a blower removed. Not unusual and that might have been the end of it had I not been sensitized to the issue by reading NR. So I did a test by shooting a white piece of paper at f22 (which I had never done before on any of my bodies) and saw lots of little black and gray spots congregated around the upper left hand corner. After I cleaned the D600 I did the same white paper test on all my other bodies and found spots on all of them. So I cleaned them all. In my opinion all DLSRs will have some dust or oil spots. some of the D600 bodies just have more than normal from the beginning and many of the spots are larger than normal. For purposes of this discussion I will divide spots into "normal spots" and "excessive spots." All DSLRs, including the D600, have normal spots. Some (we don't know how many) D600 bodies do have excessive spots. Why? To me is must be due to the insertion of a part which was not properly cleaned before arriving at the assembly line (or one dirty assembly line worker) and some excess lube on the mirror mechanism. Both should be resolved over time with some repeat cleanings. Eventually all the excess dust will have been removed and eventually all the excess lube will have flicked off the mirror mechanism. When? I suggest after about 10,000 exposures both the dust and oil spotting will return to normal.

So here is my question. How many people with a D600 are still experiencing excessive spots (you can see with the naked eye in the photo and not just spots you can only see with a white paper test) after 10,000 clicks? After 15,000 clicks? After 20,000 clicks? I am trying to determine if a D600 with the "dust issue" returns to "normal" after a certain number of exposures and cleanings. Hopefull, all D600 bodies will become "normal."

I see the main blog just announced Nikon removed the D600 from their minimum advertised price list (MAP). Hopefully, we will now see a "fire sale" on D600 bodies for those who are willing to take the risk of doing frequent cleanings themselves. Once you solve the "dust issue" it is a great camera if you don't need a lot of speed.

tcfake613

Been watching thread for a while and figure it's time I'd better post something. About 1600 clicks as of yesterday on my D600. Was shooting my sons Lacrosse game back in the spring swapping lenses many times. Had some "stuff" show up on the sensor. Giottos took are of it. One more time over the summer same thing. Another shot with Giottos. Checked it this weekend at F22... shot some blue sky. Clean as a whistle.

donaldejose

Great to hear tcflake613. Any more people with good D600 experience? There is so much negative comment posted one could get the impression that every D600 has a horrible dust issue. I suspect my experience is more normal than abnormal but I really have no way of knowing for sure.

spraynpray

I'd buy some Lotto tickets if I were you @tcfake613! Seriously though, you are lucky.

If they get down to $1000 I'll get one so long as they have a two year warranty that covers the issue or they come guaranteed not to have the dust problem. I'll happily clean it monthly for that price, but not more often than that - nor would I pay more because the camera is likely to be almost unsaleable used in the future.