Death of F-mount DX Challenge

WestEndFoto

Unfortunately it would not be fair to the earlier participants who did not know about the Z-mount three years ago.

donaldejose

DX will be "dead" on November 15, 2023. If the Z bodies with their new mount prove very successful (I think they will), Nikon will create a new and smaller mount for their APS-C sensor. We may see that in either a DSLR or mirrorless body. There will be adaptors available so old "DX lenses" will still work. In a way, you can think of the "old DX APS-C sensor in an F-mount body" becoming the new CX system so Nikon will have the traditional F mount, the new Z mount, and then a new size APS-C sensor sized mount. This change will happen faster than we think.

mhedges

WestEndFoto said:

Unfortunately it would not be fair to the earlier participants who did not know about the Z-mount three years ago.

No problem I understand.

donaldejose said:

DX will be "dead" on November 15, 2023. If the Z bodies with their new mount prove very successful (I think they will), Nikon will create a new and smaller mount for their APS-C sensor. We may see that in either a DSLR or mirrorless body. There will be adaptors available so old "DX lenses" will still work. In a way, you can think of the "old DX APS-C sensor in an F-mount body" becoming the new CX system so Nikon will have the traditional F mount, the new Z mount, and then a new size APS-C sensor sized mount. This change will happen faster than we think.

Well I can't see them introducing a new mount for DX DSLR. That would be nuts. I think they will probably just keep the cheaper DX cameras as F mount DSLR (and possibly F mount mirrorless), and come out with a 7XXX level body in mirrorless Z mount.

I think the need for an adapter is a bigger deal with DX just because of the cost pressure. Lots of folks whined about the cost of the FTZ on the Z6/Z7; proportionately it would add a lot more cost to a cheaper body.

heartyfisher

Its more likely that FX will be dead before DX :-)

WestEndFoto

heartyfisher said:

Its more likely that FX will be dead before DX :-)

Well, if the f=mount dies, given the stipulations above, the DX is dead. If a crop sensor is released in the Z-mount, that is not DX. However, if Nikon discontinued FX and continued with DX on the f-mount, then you could be right.

donaldejose

Nikon will never discontinue FX, that would be stupid. It is a great sensor size and backwardly compatible to a huge set of lenses including film era lenses. However, the DX sensor is packaged with a F mount which is larger than it needs to be. That could change. Remember, one great advantage of the CX mount was smaller lenses? I loved those tiny lenses; just didn't like the image quality of the CX sensor. If Nikon designs a DX sensor specific mount it can be smaller than the F mount and DX lenses can be designed smaller. For example, look at the glass in the DS 35mm f1.8 lens. It seems to me that lens could be made about 1/3rd smaller in a new DX sensor sized mount.
If Nikon goes this route we may see a new marketing campaign for "just right sized" DX equipment as a way to breath new life into the DX DSLR market. Bodies such as the D3500 are already pretty small and light.

WestEndFoto

donaldejose said:

Nikon will never discontinue FX, that would be stupid. It is a great sensor size and backwardly compatible to a huge set of lenses including film era lenses. However, the DX sensor is packaged with a F mount which is larger than it needs to be. That could change. Remember, one great advantage of the CX mount was smaller lenses? I loved those tiny lenses; just didn't like the image quality of the CX sensor. If Nikon designs a DX sensor specific mount it can be smaller than the F mount and DX lenses can be designed smaller. For example, look at the glass in the DS 35mm f1.8 lens. It seems to me that lens could be made about 1/3rd smaller in a new DX sensor sized mount.
If Nikon goes this route we may see a new marketing campaign for "just right sized" DX equipment as a way to breath new life into the DX DSLR market. Bodies such as the D3500 are already pretty small and light.

Perhaps, and I am inclined to think they will after they flesh out the z-mount lens selection, but it would not be DX, as it would not work on the f-mount without an adapter. Further, if Nikon did call such a beast DX, for the purpose of this contest and given the prior discussed criteria regarding the rules of the contest, I would rule such a "DX labelled format" as "not DX".

NSXTypeR

It would be weird to be investing in new FX lens along with new Z mount lenses. All being said, I'm sure there are still a few year's worth of new FX lenses and refreshes to come. It's like when Steve Jobs died, he still had a few year's worth of products that were up to his quality standards that were released. Also Nikon tends to support old lenses quite well, so there might be quite some time in which there is new old stock of FX lenses. Heck, Nikon to my knowledge still makes the F6 body new. Or if they discontinued the F6, certainly kept their pro film cameras in production for longer than Canon did.

tc88

I think people are confusing FX/DX with F-mount. FX/DX are called formats, they define sensor size. The F in FX means full frame. The F-mount was introduced long before the current concept of full frame/crop frame. The F in F-mount doesn't really mean anything at all, just like the Z in Z-mount. The mount defines the connection specs between lens and cameras. Otherwise, what do you call Z7/Z6 cameras? ZX? of course not. They are FX Z-mount cameras. So there will DX Z-mount cameras.

tc88

I think it's a given that Nikon will migrate everything from F-mount to Z-mount. So both FX F-mount and DX F-mount will die in similar time frame. Maybe the FX F-mount will long a little longer, because they tend to be higher end and require longer support.

heartyfisher

Here is why I think the FX will be "ded" before the DX system. The key reason is the Z mount. Like you said , the Z mount is bigger than the F mount, F mount was just a bit too small for the full frame sensor. . .. The Z mount is way too big for the DX sensor. But the F-Mount is just great for DX !! Yes the FX line will last for some time. Like I mentioned in a post a few years ago. when the Switch happens it will take only 1 generation. In Nikon terms a generation is 4 years. So there may be a D6 but not a D7. Now for DX low end Cameras there is no Mirrorless counterpart. Do you really think Nikon will get rid of the line of cameras with the largest value of numerical sales?

If they had kept the Nikon1 mount going .. it may have been possible to stick a Dx (or 4/3) sensor behind that, it was big enough for a DX sensor. Who knows they may still do it.

WestEndFoto

Does anybody think that the new Canon EOS RP will hasten the day?

donaldejose

Yes, I do. It "lowers the bar" for full frame bodies to approximately equal the cost of the D7xxx range bodies. Nikon will feel compelled to introduce a FF competitor. Even though the EOS RP has reduced features it won't cost much to add features in software accessed by the menu without dedicated buttons. There will be "feature creep over time" for this bottom of the line FF body; maybe a Z5 body with kit lens. The D500 will be the last "pro" F mount with DX sensor body. Future iterations of D3xxx and D5xxx level bodies can use DX sensors with fixed 18 to 55 zooms packaged in a smaller mount than the F mount. As mirrorless Z bodies and
S lenses dominate Nikon's product line because they are superior, there will be little reason for Nikon to produce new F mount bodies and lenses. Then it will make sense to start a new smaller size mount for lenses only used with a DX sensor. Think back to the days of the original small sized Nikon EM and E series lenses. DX sensors with a smaller than F mount will become the new "point and shoots" with image quality much better than cell phones. However, Nikon needs to adopt a more "cell phone" type user interface which allows users to post their images immediately to their facebook or web page over a wifi connection in order to make this product attractive to people who now will simply use their cellphone. These new type of mirrorless cameras should be pocketable or pursable with 28 mm pancake lenses because people are not going to buy something that has to be hung around their neck or carried in a separate camera bag. Nikon has Z1, Z2, and Z3 names available for such products.

retread

I for one hope the F mount stays around for quite some time. My plan has been to eventually move from DX to FX. A D850 or a D8XX when the time comes. If I go with a Z mount I will have to shoot with the FTZ adapter so lenses can be used on all cameras. I cannot afford to change everything to the Z system.

Pistnbroke

having used D800 D810 and now the D850 its the D850 that wins X10

retread

By D8XX I was thinking of what may replace the D850 if there is a replacement with the F mount.

WestEndFoto

retread said:

By D8XX I was thinking of what may replace the D850 if there is a replacement with the F mount.

Until Z cameras can match F cameras in focusing, there will be D5 and D850 iterations. And likely D750 iterations too.


And even then, with the installed user base with F glass, for a while yet.

spraynpray

I think you're right there.

moreorless

Honestly I tend to take the opposite view to the "lack of DX lens releases signals its death" idea. That Nikon can get away without many DX lens releases and still sell a lot of DX bodies is a big positive for them as it leads to higher profits. The upper end of the DX market is mostly I'd imagine people shooting FX tele lenses,

retread

Nikon is leaving a lot for others if they do not update DX lenses. I have 6 lenses in my DX kit. 4 are FX but of the 6 only 2 are Nikkor.

NSXTypeR

retread said:

Nikon is leaving a lot for others if they do not update DX lenses. I have 6 lenses in my DX kit. 4 are FX but of the 6 only 2 are Nikkor.

If Nikon truly were interested in DX, they would have released those lenses long ago. Now the ship has long sailed and I doubt Nikon would go back and fill in all the missing DX lenses. They're definitely missing out on wide angle DX lenses.

DX was created because of the cost of making FX sized sensors. Now that FX has come down in price, I don't see the point in making DX mirrorless. It just adds confusion to lens compatibility.

Pistnbroke

I see the point in making mirrorless DX ...they will sell a lot . If its 16mm flange distance and the standard F mount you will only need a simple extension tube to use your existing lenses and a couple of Kit lenses for the new flange distance and its all go . But don't do anything until you fixed the terrible focus of the Z6/7.

Is the 10.5mm DX not wide enough for you …??

WestEndFoto

How did you ever live with the focus on a D800 Pistnbroke?

mhedges

Pistnbroke said:

I see the point in making mirrorless DX ...they will sell a lot . If its 16mm flange distance and the standard F mount you will only need a simple extension tube to use your existing lenses and a couple of Kit lenses for the new flange distance and its all go . But don't do anything until you fixed the terrible focus of the Z6/7.

Is the 10.5mm DX not wide enough for you …??

You can't have an extension-tube only adapter unless you use all "E" type lenses. You need the mechanical diaphragm actuator. Nearly all the DX lenses would require it.

I would not say the Z focus is "terrible". Have you used one? I find it to be about the same as my D7200. The Z is actually noticeably better (although slow) in very low light on static subjects, if you put the "low light AF" option on. Spring soccer will be starting in a couple weeks and I will get a change to see how it does with action.

As far as the 10.5 DX lens - that's a fisheye, right?

Pistnbroke

No its not a fisheye ...dughhh