NIKON...MIRROR LESS NOW WITH FIRMWARE UPDATE

HankB

I wouldn't be surprised if Sigma and other 3rd parties will market native F mount lenses along with a very very inexpensive, simple, unobtrusive, completely cylindrical Z mount adapter that, if you wish, can be left on the lens to make it indistinguishable from and handle like a true Z mount lens. Such a lens would be at the most 30mm longer and weigh just a few grams more than a native Z mount lens.

Such an adapter wouldn't need to provide mechanical stopdown like Nikon's adapter.

mhedges

I'm not sure how that benefits Sigma vs. just requiring the use of the FTZ adapter that most people will probably have. FTZ places the cost on the customer not on Sigma which any company would prefer.

spraynpray

I wonder if they will make a ZtF adaptor.

HankB said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Sigma and other 3rd parties will market native F mount lenses along with a very very inexpensive, simple, unobtrusive, completely cylindrical Z mount adapter that, if you wish, can be left on the lens to make it indistinguishable from and handle like a true Z mount lens. Such a lens would be at the most 30mm longer and weigh just a few grams more than a native Z mount lens.

Such an adapter wouldn't need to provide mechanical stopdown like Nikon's adapter.

You lose the sharpness advantage of the true Z mount (lens closer to the sensor) though. Seems silly not to commit to the mirrorless design properly.

manhattanboy

spraynpray said:

You lose the sharpness advantage of the true Z mount (lens closer to the sensor) though. Seems silly not to commit to the mirrorless design properly.

The extra space doesn't seem to affect the sharpness of a D850
Based off my very distant recollection of physics, it seems that being closer to the sensor is a trade off. The overall distance of the lens looks like it can be reduced as you use elements to shoot light at high incident angles towards the sensor, but you need a huge opening and large rear element to do so. Thus theoretically you could convert a slightly longer and skinnier lens into a shorter and fatter one by changing the distance between the lens and the sensor and tweaking the lens design accordingly.


In regards to third party adapters, I doubt we will see anything from Sigma for a couple years. Given both Canon's AND Nikon's reluctance to share their new mount details, likely Sigma will use all their resources to just try to get some working native lenses first before concentrating on adapters.

HankB

manhattanboy said:

... likely Sigma will use all their resources to just try to get some working native lenses first before concentrating on adapters.

Seems to me the development cost of a simple adapter only for electronic aperture lenses, is insignificant when compared to developing an actual lens.

As for optimizing any given lens design for F vs Z, I doubt anyone could actually put their finger on just what real world compromises if any had been made on a lens marketed for both mounts.
You could alway argue that some lens is a bit longer than one specifically aimed at just the Z mount, but (up to 30mm) longer than what?

BVS

mhedges said:

Speaking of three mounts - what are everyone's thoughts on the Canon mirrorless? Single card slot and no IBIS? 30 MP but more expensive than the Z6, especially with the kit lens? It doen't look like a "Z" killer to me, anyway.

The body is kind of meh. As you said, single card slot (and only SD at that), no IBIS, 4K has a 1.8x (or so) crop, only 5fps with AF, no mode dial, no joystick, touch screen said to be a bit laggy, etc. The -6EV AF sounds good, but that's at f/1.2 in single shot AF. The Zs could perform similarly with a similar lens. The lenses sound nice at first glance, but the 50 f/1.2 and 28-70 f/2 are really too heavy and expensive and outclass the body. Also, neither have VR, and the body doesn't have IBIS, so no stabilization. The 24-105 looks nice. The 35 macro seems a little out of place.

Pistnbroke

Z to F not possible unless they put a lens in the adaptor...….crazy

Pistnbroke

Just been to a one on one hands on review

Nikon Rep said 20,000 had been sold and that the stock was not yet packed having firmware updates before shipping ..??


The Good.

The black out is minimal in fact confirms in silent that you took a picture
The mechanical shutter is almost silent ..nothing to worry about more like a leaf shutter .
The viewfinder is good and bright ..excellent
General handling was great .
Battery life 1000+ on stills 4 hrs on video 4k
Grip was excellent and the function buttons came easy to the finger tips.
On off switch for the LCD was good.
Menus looked well thought out for the new functions.
The card door seated very firmly but if broken off camera difficult to grip


The Bad.

It £4000 so for me and the wife one each too expensive.
One card slot ..no good for weddings.
rubber covers over the connectors horrible...one piece
WOULD NOT WORK WITH TAMRON 100-400 (OR ANY G2) OK with Sigma the rep said but not tested.
WOULD NOT WORK WITH THE SAMYANG 14MM MANUAL FOCUS ( has banana chip)
Did not like rear thumbwheel..too difficult to tape up.
A little slow to come on when switched on.

So better than expected.

donaldejose

pistnbroke: Thanks, sounds good to me. I switched my preorder from the Z7 to the Z6. Reasons: expect better higher ISO, more reasonable price, assume silent shooting will be the same, assume WYSIWYG will be the same, don't really need the higher pixel count for what I would use this for (available light and LED shooting - especially when I don't want to make noise) because not extreme cropping or printing very large. Fear: the Z6 has not been in the hands of anyone, will anything be decontented? Hope: frequent software updates which fix bugs and add features.

ggbutcher

Pistnbroke said:

Just been to a one on one hands on review

...

So better than expected.

More insight in your few lines than in most of the more wordy tomes I've read to date.

BVS

Pistnbroke said:

The Bad.

It £4000 so for me and the wife one each too expensive.
One card slot ..no good for weddings.
rubber covers over the connectors horrible...one piece
WOULD NOT WORK WITH TAMRON 100-400 (OR ANY G2) OK with Sigma the rep said but not tested.
WOULD NOT WORK WITH THE SAMYANG 14MM MANUAL FOCUS ( has banana chip)
Did not like rear thumbwheel..too difficult to tape up.
A little slow to come on when switched on.

So better than expected.

I think this is the only review we'll ever see where 'controls too difficult to tape up' is considered a negative, lol.

Searcy

BVS said:

I think this is the only review we'll ever see where 'controls too difficult to tape up' is considered a negative, lol.

Just proves that there is no universal "good or bad" camera. We all have our own needs and styles of using gear. That's why I'm much more interested in a hands on gear run down of how someone used it as opposed to "this camera sucks!"

But we live in a click bait world anymore. Thanks for the run down, Pistnbroke.

spraynpray

@BVS: LOL!

Comparing it to the Canon, the Canonistas must be soo fed-up! The Canon was rumoured years ago - if it had come out then, it would have been great but to bring that out against Nikon and Sony? Flop. My Canon-shooting mate is not bothered because he doesn't want one but says Canon have got a long way to go to catch up.

Pistnbroke

Once I have my cameras set up I change nothing ..f8 auto iso 200-6400 etc etc . But my wife has fingers everywhere so anything she can push to stuff up a picture she will find it ...hence taped up and use it like a press and pray.
Its a worry that it would not work with the latest tamron lens or the banana chip Samyang.

mhedges

Pistnbroke said:

Once I have my cameras set up I change nothing ..f8 auto iso 200-6400 etc etc . But my wife has fingers everywhere so anything she can push to stuff up a picture she will find it ...hence taped up and use it like a press and pray.
Its a worry that it would not work with the latest tamron lens or the banana chip Samyang.

Well in fairness that's the risk you take with third party lenses, right? I am surprised that it wouldn't work with the MF one though.

Thanks for the info - great to hear hands on reports from someone who isn't fishing for clicks. This is still looking good to me, even though I am going with the Z6.

BabaGanoush

tc88 said:

Actually there are two aspects of this.

For shorter flange distance, there is actually less bending of the light needed to be made by the lens, because the angle of the light from outside to the lens and from the lens to the sensor don't need to differ too much. Imagine if you have a pinhole which doesn't bend any light, how close to the sensor it needs to capture wide angle. Thus from the lens' perspective, it's easier to make and can be made more compact.

Regarding the advantages of a shorter flange distance for wide angle lenses, perhaps a simpler way to look at it is this: if your flange distance is 46.5mm, as it is for the F-mount, then a lens with a focal length of, say, 15mm requires additional optical elements in it so it can focus directly on the image sensor in the focal plane of the camera; with a shorter flange distance of 16mm, as on the Z cameras, wide angle lenses have much less need for additional optical elements to accommodate the change in effective focal distance. The design of the lens can then be made much simpler. Since this is less of an issue the longer the focal length of the lens, the shorter flange distance will offer less gain in the optical performance of telephoto lenses.

WestEndFoto

Spraynpray, I think that it is premature to discount Canon. Canon, like Nikon and unlike Sony which is an electronics company, is an optics company. I for one will be interested to see what Canon accomplishes in the optics department.

BVS

Pistnbroke said:

Once I have my cameras set up I change nothing ..f8 auto iso 200-6400 etc etc . But my wife has fingers everywhere so anything she can push to stuff up a picture she will find it ...hence taped up and use it like a press and pray.
Its a worry that it would not work with the latest tamron lens or the banana chip Samyang.

Hmm, maybe instead of taping up the camera controls it'd be better to tape up some fingers.

HankB

Or use a User mode for "Wife settings"

Photobug

Tonight I attended a special Nikon presentation on the Z6 and Z7. Also sat thought the long presentation and the Q&A discussion. Here are the highlights of what I learned.

1. Z7 ships next month.
2. Z7 ergonomics are nice. The AF-On button should be where the DSP button is, swap location. I got to handle both Z7 for almost 10 minutes.
3. The Quiet mode is quiet...you can not hear the shuttle fire. Too darn quiet.
4. The 35mm 1.8 lens...not impressed with the focus feel and the appearance. Looks cheap.
5. The 24-40 F4 was nice.
6. Several of us tried to slip our own memory card into the body and the Nikon Representative said sorry...not allowed.
7. Nikon has a better inventory of the Z7 at this point compared to the D850.
8. Nikon is placing emphasis to deliver a high percentage of the Z7 to the camera stores then to the high volume mail order stores. Example, The Camera Company only has 7 people on the preorder list.
9. Nikon said the B&H and Adorama preorder list is long. You will get your camera quicker via local dealer.
10. Priority of sales
Z7 kit lens
Z7 bodies - will be months before these ship.
11. The Converter for the F mount lens was light, nice finish and has a tripod mount.
12. The F mount converter list for $250 but if purchased with a Z7 kit, you pay $150.
13. They are ramping up the volume on the F mount converter because they expect this item to be in demand for a long time with all the F mount lens in the market.
14. The Z6 won't ship unit November.
15. The EVT is really suite.
16. I picked up all 3 magazines.
17. The camera really is a nice fit in your hands and a breeze to hold on a bump road. Saw some really good pictures from a bumpy jeep.

There you go, that is my comments from my first session with the Z7.

mhedges

Good info @Photobug thanks!

Did they have any Z6's there? I don't think we have had any hands on reports on it yet.

Rx4Photo

Thanks for that "debriefing" @Photobug ! I've been looking forward to the unveiling of the Nikon mirrorless. As I'm still shooting my D800 and making gas & spending cash with it, I'm not in much of a rush. That said I'll probably wait for the next version of the Z7 before I buy. I'm soon to buy a Fuji X-E3 to satisfy my compact travel mirrorless dreams for now. (24.3MP APS-C X-Trans CMOSiii sensor).

I have photographed a model with a friend's Sony a7Riii and have files on my computer. Absolutely phenomenal - and I'm sure the Nikon Z7 would produce similar IQ. It's amazing to shoot a half body portrait, then zoom in so close that you can count very detailed, non-blurry eyelashes and eyebrows. If the Z7's grip is slightly larger than the Sony's then that's a major plus. Also the Z7 hits ISO 64 whereas the a7Riii bottoms at ISO 100, another major plus in the south Florida sun. As for card slots, Sony has 2 so if the next version of the Z7 has 2 it will satisfy what so many are crying about.
Looking forward to thoughts from regular people instead of those ambassador types on YouTube.

Photobug

mhedges said:

Good info @Photobug thanks!

Did they have any Z6's there? I don't think we have had any hands on reports on it yet.

mhedges, no they only had two Z7's, the 35mm and 24-70 F4. He did not know when the representatives would have the Z6.

I did ask about the battery grip and they had no delivery date, only it was under development.

The sales representative answered a question about the battery life and did mention the internet articles and YouTube videos about 350 shots/charge. He went through a reply that sounded like a Nikon response about the testing by that association has all features turned on. He mentioned that he had personally used the Z7 a week ago and took just over 1,400 photos for the day and there was still 30% battery life left. He also had the image display set for 5 seconds.

Lots of interest in the Z6 at 12 frames/second vs. 9 frames/second.

Photobug

Rx4Photo said:

Thanks for that "debriefing" @Photobug ! I've been looking forward to the unveiling of the Nikon mirrorless. As I'm still shooting my D800 and making gas & spending cash with it, I'm not in much of a rush. That said I'll probably wait for the next version of the Z7 before I buy. I'm soon to buy a Fuji X-E3 to satisfy my compact travel mirrorless dreams for now. (24.3MP APS-C X-Trans CMOSiii sensor).

I have photographed a model with a friend's Sony a7Riii and have files on my computer. Absolutely phenomenal - and I'm sure the Nikon Z7 would produce similar IQ. It's amazing to shoot a half body portrait, then zoom in so close that you can count very detailed, non-blurry eyelashes and eyebrows. If the Z7's grip is slightly larger than the Sony's then that's a major plus. Also the Z7 hits ISO 64 whereas the a7Riii bottoms at ISO 100, another major plus in the south Florida sun. As for card slots, Sony has 2 so if the next version of the Z7 has 2 it will satisfy what so many are crying about.
Looking forward to thoughts from regular people instead of those ambassador types on YouTube.

Just to add to my earlier comments, the grip was really comfortable in my medium size hands. It felt good in my hands but yet not to small. Give Nikon credit for their design work on the grip, it has that Nikon feel.

I actually said the same thing to my wife last night, I would wait until the next update to the Z7 or Z6.

There was a lot of discussion about the RAW file size and when people heard you had three options (Small, Medium, and Large), that seem to calm the discussion.

snakebunk

@Photobug: Thanks for the report! Did you have time to get any feeling about the position of the af-on button, is it placed comfortably under the thumb?