NIKON...MIRROR LESS NOW WITH FIRMWARE UPDATE

mhedges

manhattanboy said:

@mhedges can you tell me about the adapter that allows "EOS" lenses on the Z. That sounds amazing.

No I meant if and when Canon launches a mirrorless - if they do a new mount their adapter will be simpler since they don't have a bunch of legacy screw drive AF lenses or mechanical aperture activation to consider.

HankB

WestEndFoto said:

The FTZ adapter does not incorporate a screwdrive so there is no handicap there.

Of course. What I referred to is that to not make an overly complex adapter, Nikon had to forfeit accommodating screw drive AF lenses whereas Canon automatically accommodates its lenses of that same vintage. If I am not mistaken, Canon will with a super simple adapter (essentially just an extension tube) be able to adapt all of its lenses made in the last 3 decades while retaining all those lens's respective functions.

And as I mentioned, Nikon adapters have that added burden of mechanical apertures on all but the E and P lenses.

donaldejose

"So far everyone that has said positive things about the new Nikons is either an Ambassador for Nikon or get Ad money from camera manufacturers." That is simply because of who Nikon chose to put pre-production models into the hands of. Tony and Chelsea Northrup do post links but are not Nikon Ambassadors and they did have some serious criticism of the AF and the single card slot.

BVS

Aside from the single card slot, which is obviously a problem for paid pros, I'm not quite understanding all the Z hate. It's weak in a few areas, but seems like a decent camera overall.

On the plus side:

Video people got nearly everything they could have hoped for - good video AF, 10 bit 4:2:2, log, focus peaking in 4K mode, zebras, etc.

OVF vs EVF people got reportedly the most lifelike EVF ever made.

People concerned about their F-mount glass got a low cost adapter ($150 in bundle) that supposedly doesn't confer any performance penalty. Plus, the old glass now benefits from in body stabilization, and you can focus all over the frame now (not stuck to the middle anymore), so they might be even better than before.

Ergonomics and weather sealing people got a camera size that's strikes a good balance between small and light and easy to hold, a good grip, and weather sealing as good as D850.

Z7 includes all the goodies from D850 such as focus shift shooting.

The 50mm f/1.8S is probably the best 50mm Nikon has ever made, the 35mm f/1.8S might be the best 35mm they've ever made, and the 24-70 f/4 is a first for Nikon. Plus, the focus rings can be assigned other functions like aperture control or exposure compensation if you're not using them for manual focus.

Additionally, the touchscreen works well and is fully functional, the menu system isn't a mess, it has lossless compressed 14bit RAW, the pro memory banks everyone hates are finally gone, and you gain a U3.

On the minus side:

Some AF issues, but let's wait for proper tests with production cameras before getting out the pitchforks. Hopefully Nikon can sort these out via firmware update. AF performance has traditionally been one of Nikon's strengths, so it'd be unusual if AF wasn't up to snuff. I agree Nikon bungled the demos though.

CIPA battery life ratings are low, but user reports claim it lasts a lot longer. Again, proper tests with production cameras are needed.

5.5fps with full AE is a bit low, but still usable. High speed shooting (over 5.5fps) locks AE. If you let off the shutter button for a moment and press it again it'll AE again, but not ideal for long high speed bursts. Better off sticking with D5/D850 for this.

Buffer is a bit too low, but at least XQD allows it to clear the buffer and make it ready to shoot again quickly, unlike A7RIII which can take from 15sec to almost 1min to clear a full buffer.

Z7 price is too high vs Z6 for just a higher res sensor, AF points, and a few other things. Price is easy to change though if it doesn't sell well.

mhedges

BVS said:

Aside from the single card slot, which is obviously a problem for paid pros, I'm not quite understanding all the Z hate. It's weak in a few areas, but seems like a decent camera overall.

On the plus side:

Video people got nearly everything they could have hoped for - good video AF, 10 bit 4:2:2, log, focus peaking in 4K mode, zebras, etc.

OVF vs EVF people got reportedly the most lifelike EVF ever made.

People concerned about their F-mount glass got a low cost adapter ($150 in bundle) that supposedly doesn't confer any performance penalty. Plus, the old glass now benefits from in body stabilization, and you can focus all over the frame now (not stuck to the middle anymore), so they might be even better than before.

Ergonomics and weather sealing people got a camera size that's strikes a good balance between small and light and easy to hold, a good grip, and weather sealing as good as D850.

Z7 includes all the goodies from D850 such as focus shift shooting.

The 50mm f/1.8S is probably the best 50mm Nikon has ever made, the 35mm f/1.8S might be the best 35mm they've ever made, and the 24-70 f/4 is a first for Nikon. Plus, the focus rings can be assigned other functions like aperture control or exposure compensation if you're not using them for manual focus.

Additionally, the touchscreen works well and is fully functional, the menu system isn't a mess, it has lossless compressed 14bit RAW, the pro memory banks everyone hates are finally gone, and you gain a U3.

On the minus side:

Some AF issues, but let's wait for proper tests with production cameras before getting out the pitchforks. Hopefully Nikon can sort these out via firmware update. AF performance has traditionally been one of Nikon's strengths, so it'd be unusual if AF wasn't up to snuff. I agree Nikon bungled the demos though.

CIPA battery life ratings are low, but user reports claim it lasts a lot longer. Again, proper tests with production cameras are needed.

5.5fps with full AE is a bit low, but still usable. High speed shooting (over 5.5fps) locks AE. If you let off the shutter button for a moment and press it again it'll AE again, but not ideal for long high speed bursts. Better off sticking with D5/D850 for this.

Buffer is a bit too low, but at least XQD allows it to clear the buffer and make it ready to shoot again quickly, unlike A7RIII which can take from 15sec to almost 1min to clear a full buffer.

Z7 price is too high vs Z6 for just a higher res sensor, AF points, and a few other things. Price is easy to change though if it doesn't sell well.

Agree completely. I am actually quite excited to get my Z6.

Vipmediastar_JZ

^^^ agreed as well and looking at the z6 as well as the potential first nikon mirrorless for me.

spraynpray

OK, I have been following this thread with interest and I have been disappointed by a lot of the member’s reactions that I have read. I have kept out of it because there were few actual facts from someone I trusted, so I chose to wait until more solid experiences emerged believing, as I do, that Nikon's biggest sin is very poor marketing.

Today I was contacted by someone I trust and he told me actual hands-on facts learned from handling the pre-production prototypes and production versions of both of the new Z’s. I will summarise his comments and please do not ask me to expand on it further as all I know is written below. It was written in response to this thread and the negativity within it. For someone to reach out to me like this I believe they are very concerned by the responses they are seeing.

I must say I am relieved and excited to read his findings.

I am having to post it in two parts as it is too long for one post!

Part one:


The mirrorless camera names have nothing to do with or any correlation to the DSLR model that people are trying to associate as replacements or equivalents. The Z6 is not the D6## series equivalent and the Z7 is not the D7## equivalent. The Z6 is superior in all respects to the D6## cameras, especially image quality and low light performance. The Z7 is leaps and bounds superior to the D750 in every aspect and Nikon developed it to be superior to the D850.
The Z7 is Nikon’s Professional mirrorless camera and if one had to compare it to a DSLR it would be the next version of the D850. Nikon’s marketing department has made a royal mess of the release and there is a considerable effort to address the issue. Nikon and everyone that I know that has used the Z7 realize that the camera is not only superior to the current FF MILC’s on the market but is also superior to the D850 which is considered to be the best DSLR on the market. There will NOT be a Z8 that is supposed to be the mirrorless version of the D850. Nikon is developing a MILC that will be professional body for the sports (wildlife) photographer well in advance of the next Olympics.
The low light performance of the two cameras is astonishing. The Z6 produces images that at ISO 6000 that are as clean as the Df and D750 at ISO 400. The Z7 is very close and at ISO 4000 are cleaner than the D850 at ISO 800 (being very conservative) and ISO 6000 is still very clean.
Image quality of both cameras is incredible. With the new Z lens the images are sharp from corner to corner, contrast and colour rendition are the best I have seen on any full frame camera. Skin tones and depth of colour the outstanding. They are closer to the D850 than other Nikon DSLR’s but they are clearly better and more true-to-life. I always felt I needed to make adjustments to the skin tones and add some saturation to the D750, D810, D5, etc. but the images from both cameras are very close to being perfect.

spraynpray

Part 2:

The auto focus is super-fast and accurate. The pinpoint auto focus mode will allow portrait photographers to focus on the iris of the person and is incredibly accurate. I scheduled a model for two hours to shoot a series of portraits and ended up spending the more than 6 hours. It was the most fun I have had shooting portraits in a long time and the images were ridiculously sharp and beautiful.
I know the photographer whose hands-on review Peter posted and he could (should) have chosen better wording for his comments. However, I do agree with some of his points. I tested the FTZ adapter using a AI-s, D, G and E series lens and it works flawlessly for G and E series lens. The AI-s and D lens some I had to manually focus to get a in focus image. There is a significant image quality difference between the AI-s/D and the G/E and a greater difference between the AI-s/D and the Z lens. I agree with the anonymous poster’s comment why someone would buy the Z camera and use a lens that has outdated optics that is will yield a lower quality image. Nikon spent a great deal of time and effort to develop and incredible adapter and it shows but it is rather foolish to think that they would develop a adapter that would accommodate every lens they have every made and that they would want a photographer using lens that would reflect poorly of the camera. Some will be disappointed with the adapter if they are using older lens but for those with the G/E lens will be excited to see how well they perform. Nikon hit this one out of the park in my opinion.
Most if not all of the photographers (including myself) that tested the pre-production Z6/Z7 cameras expressed concerns about having a single XQD card slot to the Nikon team. Nikon put a lot of time into testing the XQD card (including complicated and detailed fault testing) and are confident that one XQD card will hold up to the most rigorous shooting conditions. In addition, it is not as simple as adding another card slot. Adding the electronics to allow for the communication between the two cards and the additional processing needed to handle the second card would have prevented Nikon from introducing a camera that was close to the same price range as the Sony and soon to be released Canon cameras. Nikon is dedicated to the XQD card and that is why they are starting to manufacturing them. I am not completely sold on the single card idea but time will tell if they made the right decision.
The EVF is much better than I thought it would be and the adjustment to using it was very easy. Switching between the Z7 and D850 took some time to adjust to but after a hour of shooting both it was a not much of an issue. If there is a black-out it is so short that I did not notice it. The major adjustment was going back to the D850 and thinking what I was seeing was the actual exposure and not making the corrections for proper exposure.
The one issue that was noticeable in the pre-production model was the buffer. The Z7 the buffer would fill up after a burst of approximately 40 shots. The production model is better and I have not tested the maximum number of shots to fill the buffer.
The battery life on the pre-production cameras was better than the CIPA 330 shots but was somewhere close to 500. The production version battery life is better and is similar to battery life of the D850. I have taken 861 shots on the Z7 in the past two days and I have 42% left on the battery.
I believe a lot of the negative comments on social media and many of the reviews are being made by individuals that either have a vested interest in other MILC’s companies or have that other companies product and that once the cameras get in the hands of more photographers there will be a lot of positive comments and press about the Z cameras. I think the demand will be greater than it was for the D800 and D850.

donaldejose

Good to hear these opinions from an actual user.

mhedges

Yeah.

Sounds like it’s gonna be a long three months!

BVS

spraynpray said:

The mirrorless camera names have nothing to do with or any correlation to the DSLR model that people are trying to associate as replacements or equivalents. The Z6 is not the D6## series equivalent and the Z7 is not the D7## equivalent. The Z6 is superior in all respects to the D6## cameras, especially image quality and low light performance. The Z7 is leaps and bounds superior to the D750 in every aspect and Nikon developed it to be superior to the D850.

In retrospect though, perhaps naming them Z7 and Z8 would have been less confusing. That would have still left room for an ultra high res Z9 and a pro sports body ZX.

tc88

spraynpray's source said:

The low light performance of the two cameras is astonishing. The Z6 produces images that at ISO 6000 that are as clean as the Df and D750 at ISO 400.

Please don't take it personally. But honestly, that's all I need to read to determine (for myself) the credibility of your source.

snakebunk

@spraynpray: Thanks for posting the report! But as tc88, I have a hard time believing the ISO claims. And I don't understand why it has suddenly become so expensive to make two card slots (especially since there is no need to make a mirror). And why it is foolish to think something about the adapter because old lenses are not sharp enough is just not relevant.

I feel like I don't know anything about how these cameras perform. And I am slightly irritated that the cameras were not ready for the release (and that there is no shutter on the battery pack). But the new mount is great and will make wonders for the optics I think.

Pistnbroke

With DOF all I am saying is that if you put a lens in front of a sensor the size of the sensor does not affect the DOF. All that affects DOF is focal length /aperture/ distance to subject. All other comments on DOF are just variations on those facts.

snakebunk

Pistnbroke said:

All that affects DOF is focal length /aperture/ distance to subject. All other comments on DOF are just variations on those facts.

I agree, except I would say that all that affects DOF is aperture and distance to subject. Focal length only affects the magnification, not the image itself.

spraynpray

I feel that is too simple a statement to be conclusive @Pistnbroke. The sensor size does affect the DoF if you are taking the same photograph. If I shoot a butterfly with the D7100 I frame the shot the same as if I am shooting it with the D750. To get the same shot with the D7100 I have to stand off a little so the subject to sensor distance changes and the DoF does as a result. My little Nikon 1 gives a usefully large depth of field as a result of this fact. BTW the Nikon 1 J5 is 20mP so I still get a decent amount of pixels on the subject.

One of the chants of the full frame snobs is about the superior DoF control you get with FX over DX being massively important to them. Same thing in reverse.

henrik1963

I wonder how many paid pros went out of business because the one card slot in their D700 failed.
My D700 was dropped 3 or 4 feet on to the deck of an Icelandic fishing boat. Both the D700 and the 24-70 F2.8 survived the fall and kept on taking pictures.
Prior to that the main board on the D700 was fried – nobody knows why – Nikon repair said “It happens” but it is a rare thing to see. (I use Nikon batteries)
My D800 has been knocked about, been too close to waterfalls, been in dusty and humid places – so far it keeps going.
Nikon cameras are tough. But many things can kill a camera. Maybe paid pros should bring a spare body when they shoot important events?

rmp

Thanks for the details spray&pray. I wanted the z7 to be better that the D850, but needed someone to play with the Z7 before I got my hopes up.

spraynpray

You're welcome Bob.

The person who reached out to me was one of the pro's that Nikon had evaluating the products along the way so that means (to me at least) that they have faith in his abilities so therefore do I.

manhattanboy

@spraynpray Thanks for sharing. His comments are insightful and nice to see it’s not just me that occasionally gets tripped up switching back and forth between the two types of cameras. Like others though I think some of the comments are a little too hyped... like the need to abandon post processing of RAWs. Is there even a converter available yet?

In regards to the negativity, IMHO some of us have earned that right given the way we have been treated by Nikon. I have a V1, V2, J4, and J5 along with several thousand in glass. What is Nikon's message to photags that supported their last mirrorless mount? How fast should Nikon CX mount supporters jump in on the new Z mount? Couple that disregard to the way they treat those that are first in line for products. I was one of the first to get a 300pf. As the first batch didn't have VR that worked correctly at shutter speeds around 1/500, we all had to give them back to Nikon for repair. Did Nikon give me an apology or loaner for the month it took to repair? No. The only thing I received was a bad attitude from the lady at the front desk and time lost for the inconvenience.

The reason I continue to support Nikon is because of photags like those on this forum that are amazing, and because some of their cameras are best in class like the D8xx line and the D500.

Searcy

And now I'm thinking of reordering an Z6.

DenverShooter

henrik1963 said:

I wonder how many paid pros went out of business because the one card slot in their D700 failed.
My D700 was dropped 3 or 4 feet on to the deck of an Icelandic fishing boat. Both the D700 and the 24-70 F2.8 survived the fall and kept on taking pictures.
Prior to that the main board on the D700 was fried – nobody knows why – Nikon repair said “It happens” but it is a rare thing to see. (I use Nikon batteries)
My D800 has been knocked about, been too close to waterfalls, been in dusty and humid places – so far it keeps going.
Nikon cameras are tough. But many things can kill a camera. Maybe paid pros should bring a spare body when they shoot important events?

I always carry a spare body. Never had to use it.

Denver Shooter

mhedges

snakebunk said:

@spraynpray: Thanks for posting the report! But as tc88, I have a hard time believing the ISO claims. And I don't understand why it has suddenly become so expensive to make two card slots (especially since there is no need to make a mirror). And why it is foolish to think something about the adapter because old lenses are not sharp enough is just not relevant.



I feel like I don't know anything about how these cameras perform. And I am slightly irritated that the cameras were not ready for the release (and that there is no shutter on the battery pack). But the new mount is great and will make wonders for the optics I think.

I thought the justification for the single slot was size, not cost? Anyway as far as cost difference from DSLR I think mirrors are cheap compared to good EVF's.

spraynpray said:

I feel that is too simple a statement to be conclusive @Pistnbroke. The sensor size does affect the DoF if you are taking the same photograph. If I shoot a butterfly with the D7100 I frame the shot the same as if I am shooting it with the D750. To get the same shot with the D7100 I have to stand off a little so the subject to sensor distance changes and the DoF does as a result. My little Nikon 1 gives a usefully large depth of field as a result of this fact. BTW the Nikon 1 J5 is 20mP so I still get a decent amount of pixels on the subject.

One of the chants of the full frame snobs is about the superior DoF control you get with FX over DX being massively important to them. Same thing in reverse.

Yep this exactly.

spraynpray

tc88 said:

spraynpray's source said:

The low light performance of the two cameras is astonishing. The Z6 produces images that at ISO 6000 that are as clean as the Df and D750 at ISO 400.

Please don't take it personally. But honestly, that's all I need to read to determine (for myself) the credibility of your source.

I am not going to discuss or debate the points I posted on someones behalf, if you want to see some images, go look at Dave Black's instagram account.

snakebunk

spraynpray said:

One of the chants of the full frame snobs is about the superior DoF control you get with FX over DX being massively important to them. Same thing in reverse.

I wonder if the snobs know that they can also use a shorter lens to let them get closer .