NIKON...MIRROR LESS NOW WITH FIRMWARE UPDATE

HankB

retread said:

I use the better Hoya or B&W filters on most of my lenses. Never broke a filter but have had one get scratched somehow. I am sure the filter cost less than the front element of a 70-200 f2.8.

And the annoyance, hassle, inconvenience, aggravation, waist of time, temporary loss of use of getting a lens repaired is worse than the mere monetary cost.

mhedges

So I guess there is a holiday running September 23rd thru Oct 2, and Adorama and B&H will be closed. Guess folks will have to wait on their Z7's.

manhattanboy

Is anyone following the news about the Leica/Panasonic/Sigma new mirrorless cameras? It looks like they are following Nikon and releasing a Z7 competitor around 50MP and a Z6 competitor with lower megapixels. Supposedly Sigma is making an adapter for EF glass to try to scoop Canon users making the mirrorless jump.

These will be interesting times at Photokina! Thom Hogan always said the ones who announce the closet to the show usually have the biggest product surprises, so it will be interesting to see what Panasonic actually announces.

mhedges

It will be interesting, that’s for sure. As I may have said before I’m curious how big the FF mirrorless market is, and how many systems it can support well.

donaldejose

"I’m curious how big the FF mirrorless market is" . . . it is as big as the DSLR FF market and will slowly (or quickly) take it over as soon as the EVF technology is good enough to eliminate any places where an OVF is superior. I doubt the FF market will ever grow much from where it is today because of two factors: 1. Cell phone cameras will increasingly eliminate "real cameras" for most uses. Only "professionals" or "camera nuts" will buy dedicated cameras. 2. A DX sensor in a body such as the D500 is good enough these days for even professional use as long as the prints are not going to be larger than about 11x14. Nikon doesn't yet have a DX mirrorless version of the D500 but I would expect it to be offered with a 24mp DX sensor for about $1,500 in a year or so. Such a body could do everything a wedding or senior portrait photographer needs to do. When these two factors are combined the FF market cannot grow from where it is today and likely will shrink even further. Future FF users will likely be a new category "extreme advanced amateurs" or "extreme pros." These will be people who need (or want) an extra stop of clean high ISO than DX can provide (not needed if you are adding your own light by strobes) or who think their work may be printed larger than poster size. What does this mean for the small medium format sensor? It will be totally unnecessary for about 99% of photographers.

Predictions:

1. The Z6 will become the most popular Z model for about two years because it hits a "sweet spot" between price and performance.
2. In a year or so we will see Nikon offer two new Z models. One will be a DX Z5 which will be the mirrorless version of the D500. The other will be an FX Z8 with around 70 mp, a real battery grip with controls and hopefully two card slots. It will be the new "best all around Nikon digital camera" in much the way the D850 now is. That is going to be the Nikon mirrorless body almost everyone on this forum will lust after. It may cost almost $4,000.00.
3. The D6 may, or may not, be mirrorless. It is a close call at this time. None of us know what Nikon knows about what they will be able to offer in EVF technology in a year. Nikon must now be creating the best OVF D6 and the best EVF D6 prototypes so they can determine which overall has the most to offer. We will get the best they can produce by production deadline whether that be OVF or EVF.
4. The new mirrorless FF lenses are going to be designed for 70 to 100 mp sensors. Sigma Art will no longer be superior to Nikon glass, at least to S glass. But this will make S glass more expensive than comparable current Nikon lenses.
5. We are at the end, or very near the end, of the DSLR lines. Likely, we will see a D5700, a D760 and a D860 yet but that may be about all. There will be no D620. There will be no D7600. Future models will be mirrorless.

PB_PM

For Nikon to compete with Sony and others in the mirrorless space, which all already have a head start (except Canon), they are going to have to up the refresh cycle of these bodies to once a year, no if ands or buts about it.

donaldejose

"up the refresh cycle of these bodies to once a year" Nikon can and should improve or add software ASAP and send it out ASAP as a software update without waiting for a new body cycle. For example, would eye AF actually require any new hardware? I would think it would all be in software: find the face (which Nikon software already does) and determine the nearest eye in that face (which I would think is a software decision) and adjust focus accordingly. Software updates could be released every 6 months to help "close the gap" with Sony. Hardware updates, like two card slots, may already be in the Z8 plans for release in 2019. Nikon may catch up faster than we think if they are aggressive. I do hope so.

mhedges

“DX sensor in a body such as the D500 is good enough these days for even professional use as long as the prints are not going to be larger than about 11x14.“

Largely agree except for this. Limiting print size to 11x14 sells DX cameras short. I’ve made 16x20 conventional prints off a D5500 and canvas prints up to 40” wide and they look great. Granted, canvas prints aren’t quite as demanding as a regular print but I think you could go 20x30 conventional print minimum and still be very respectable.

spraynpray

I have to say I agree with mhedges. When I was shooting weddings with DX I had a customer ask for a 1 metre print of a whole group heart shot. It looked absolutely fine when viewed at a sensible distance

retread

I have printed a 16x20 from a 16mp D5100 and a 30x48 banner on vinyl from a 24mp D7200 and both looked just fine. Have a 18x12 in the works from the 20mp D500. Will see what it is like. It is night time sports so ISO is a bit high so will see what it is like.

Pistnbroke

As you might guess I don't agree that 24MP or DX is ok for weddings ..When I used DX I had a couple arrive late and only got in the heart shot ...can we have a print of us ….no chance just furry. Only three weddings to go before I am forced to retire ..anyone looking for low milage D800 and D 810 ??

[Deleted User]

Pistinbroke,pm me with details on your d810.

so what is causing you to consider retirement?

Weddings getting to be too much?

On a slightly unrelated story, but having potential relevance for me as i have enjoyed using panasonic cameras in the past from time to time and am keen on owning a lighter camera which readily accepts nikon glass. The leica "i" mount is intriguing if they will be producing a ff mirrorless. Too many options bode well for competitive products though. I am patient as the d8.. Series still offers great image quality. As i get older i would like to have the option of getting at least d8.. Quality out of much lighter equipment. My body is not particularly happy with the ~ 13 lbs of equipment i regularly carry around on long hikes. And that's excluding the long teles i own.

The chest muscle pains are annoying.

Capt_Spaulding

To folks who have played with one of the Zs, what does the evf do when running in continuous shutter mode? Apologies if this has already been covered.

donaldejose

DX print size. I have printed DX size to 24 x 36 inches and it was fine. A 24 mp DX sensor printed at 300 dpi will produce a 13.3 x 20 inch print. Allow for some cropping and you get down to around 11 x 14 or 16 inches which is why I said "as long as prints are not going to be larger than 11 x 14." When you get to printing larger than that I think you will run into two items which can degrade the image. 1. You have to print at less than 300 dpi which will degrade the image viewed close up. Printing at 200 dpi will give you a print of 30 x 20 which is acceptable viewed at a distance but could lack sharpness when viewed close up. 2. I am also concerned that image quality will drop off below excellent when using a DX lens enlarged to poster size. I mentioned a conservative print size limit for commercial work to allow for some leeway, such as the extreme cropping mentioned by pistnbroke. Of course, anything can be done. At the last wedding I was talking to a "wedding photographer" who just shot a wedding for $500 and her equipment is a single D750 with a 50mm f1.4 and a 24-70 2.8 lens. She has no backup camera. I have not seen her work.

Searcy

I sold some 20"x30" metal prints not long ago that I shot with a d7200. The customer seemed happy with the image quality. But I guess it could have been better with a FF body.

BVS

Capt_Spaulding said:

To folks who have played with one of the Zs, what does the evf do when running in continuous shutter mode? Apologies if this has already been covered.

This video shows how the EVF behaves with the mechanical shutter. Not sure about E shutter. Basically, up to 5.5fps it looks like a regular DSLR, with a short blackout each time the shutter closes. In continuous high extended (up to 9fps on Z7 and 12fps on Z6) it's like watching a slideshow or slow frame rate video with no blackout.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=w2dJYg7-x94

Capt_Spaulding

Thanks.

Pistnbroke

Quote,
"wedding photographer" who just shot a wedding for $500 and her equipment is a single D750 with a 50mm f1.4 and a 24-70 2.8 lens.

Well that's part of the problem but I had 102 hits on my website on Sunday alone...any enquiry or phone call ...no


Th other is hotels building the photography into there package and charging £200 if you want to use your own .


Just not enough work to justify the investment.

[Deleted User]

Pistnbroke, sorry to hear that.

[Deleted User]

I wonder if the just announced jv among leica, panasonic and sigma is leica's hail mary to stay competitive in lieu of coming out with an updated sl while showing blackstone progress on all product fronts. Really, how many 75mm nocts (optimum optical perfection we are told) will they sell, and that was their last major new product announcement. Perhaps leica is unable to react quickly enough in a mature but nano evolving techno environment and this may be its last hurrah at FF mirrorless? Kaufman hinted at the demise of one or more camera manufacturer in an interview a few years ago. Perhaps in a twist of fate, leica is the most vulnerable. Can sales of m10s and Qs sustain them into the future? Interesting times and perhaps too many optons for buyers. On the other hand i would not likely buy into a system with sigma lenses unless they were designed by leica. My limited experience with Sigma did not convince me to buy. Rather stick with nikon for dependability in af and color performance.

donaldejose

Cell phone cameras are mirrorless. Look at the new i-phone software defocus control. Quite impressive. I see no reason why Nikon could not include such a feature in their retouch menu. Do you? We could get a f1.2 jpeg image right out of the camera even though we used an F4 lens! kenrockwell.com/tech/comparisons/iphone-vs-full-frame-bokeh.htm

BVS

donaldejose said:

Cell phone cameras are mirrorless. Look at the new i-phone software defocus control. Quite impressive. I see no reason why Nikon could not include such a feature in their retouch menu. Do you? We could get a f1.2 jpeg image right out of the camera even though we used an F4 lens! kenrockwell.com/tech/comparisons/iphone-vs-full-frame-bokeh.htm

The backgrounds are ok, but the transition areas on the iPhone shots need a lot of work IMO.

I'm sure we'll see more in-camera processing from mirrorless in the future. Not sure about fake bokeh though. The camera companies want to sell you expensive lenses, and that'd be harder to do if they introduced this sort of thing.

spraynpray

BVS said:

The camera companies want to sell you expensive lenses, and that'd be harder to do if they introduced this sort of thing.

Good point.

Pistnbroke

so 10 new adaptors to let you put anything from Canon to M39 on your Z ..no electronics though...so a no from me.

mhedges

BVS said:

donaldejose said:

Cell phone cameras are mirrorless. Look at the new i-phone software defocus control. Quite impressive. I see no reason why Nikon could not include such a feature in their retouch menu. Do you? We could get a f1.2 jpeg image right out of the camera even though we used an F4 lens! kenrockwell.com/tech/comparisons/iphone-vs-full-frame-bokeh.htm

The backgrounds are ok, but the transition areas on the iPhone shots need a lot of work IMO.

Agree. They are pretty terrible. Did you notice how the bottom right corner of his weather station was blurred along with the "background"? And some of those dog pics looked like really bad photoshop jobs, where only the dog's head was sharp and everything else immediately went to bokeh.

Still I think this tech has some promise, and we may see it in ILC's one day. It depends on if there is demand for it, I guess. Maybe it will happen in lower end/crop sensor stuff first.