Z6 ii and Z7 ii

Capt_Spaulding

How does the D780/Z6 sensor compare to the D750 in low light? I am happy with my 750 and have no near-term plans to upgrade. One of the reasons is its low light performance.

WestEndFoto

Slightly better. Slightly.

mhedges

Yeah. About 1/3 stop better I believe. Not a big difference.

PB_PM

I don’t see any meaning difference at all between the D750 and Z6 images at the same ISO. The noise pattern is slightly different between them, but there is no difference in terms of image detail at high ISO. I wouldn’t bother upgrading just for the sensor either.

I did a side grade, selling my D750 and getting a Z6. I did it more to get used to the new system, and to see if I needed to bother getting Z-mount lenses. So far all my compatible F-mount glass is performing well, don’t see any need at all to get Z lenses. Yes they better on paper, but I’m in no rush at this point. If I fully switch to Z, then I’ll get Z glass. I knew going in I wouldn’t be using a Z body for action shooting, I’ve got the D850 for that. For portraits, I’m satisfied with the Z6 and my F-mount lenses.

spraynpray

Good to hear that PB_PM. I read that the improvement in low light perfomance was down to the new processor in the Z6. Maybe that is the difference with the D750/ D780.

WestEndFoto

WestEndFoto said:

Slightly better. Slightly.

I am sure that there are differences that can be quantified. But I cannot imagine them having a practical impact on the quality of an image that is captured by either option.

At some point measurebators and gearheads lose site of this boundary and go down a rabbit hole. They can talk at endless length about meaningless trivia but not have the skill to capture a great image despite having the best gear.

mhedges

I think it's noticeably better if you shoot JPG. NEF not so much.

photobunny

I think you need 2-3 generations of body before a big jump can be noticed, so z6iv to z6v.

PB_PM

spraynpray said:

Good to hear that PB_PM. I read that the improvement in low light perfomance was down to the new processor in the Z6. Maybe that is the difference with the D750/ D780.

As others have suggested, I suspect the real difference is only noticeable for making in camera jpegs. I only shoot jpegs for long timelaps shoots that would fill the card(s) up if I didn't. I was happy with the high ISO of the D750, so the Z6 being about the same or slightly better is fine to me. The only way to get better noise performance now is a bigger sensors with fewer pixels per inch, or if companies start implementing AI noise reduction techniques in camera. That could be a while, since that is still a big hit on CPU performance, and would require noticeable delays in between shots. Would be good for astro shots though.

I know this thread is for the Z7II/Z6II, but I get the feeling that for the most part the behavior is similar (with the new being a little faster). As I noted when I tested a Z6 in a store last year, the grip and feel of the camera is great, even with the FT-Z adapter. Everything is extremely well assembled, you can tell the camera was made in Japan (not that the Thailand plant is doing a bad job either). The Z6, and my recent D850 really feel as well made as the D3/D300/D700, something the D800, D750, and D810 lacked.

I can tell the version 3.20 auto focus is much better than the version 2.x firmware that I tested last year. It was quick then, but it is clearly snappier now. Keep in mind I'm comparing the native Z 24-70mm F4 that I tested in the store against the Sigma 50mm F1.4 Art, AF-S 24-70mm F2.8G, AF-S 70-200mm F2.8G VRII, and AF-S 105mm F2.8G VR F-mount glass. I haven't tested the AF-S 200-400mm F4 VR yet. In other words focus is fast, even without the latest and great E lenses with the FT-Z. I couldn't test the Z6 in store with a Z lens with the new firmware, COVID policies, so I ordered online.

The only thing I dislike so far about Z is how many more button presses and menu diving it takes to do something that takes one or none on a DSLR. I'm hopeful that the follow up to the Z7II and Z6II will be worth upgrading to when they arrive. I'm not in a situation that I require dual card slots anymore, but I do like them for long timelaps, as noted before. It will be interesting to see how the battery holds up once I really get out and test it for something other than family photos. I went though one battery just getting the thing setup the way I want, based on my own testing and what others have recommended.

WestEndFoto

I don't think that anybody looking for the lost buttons (meaning buttons that the D850 has but the Z 6/7 lack) is going to be satisfied. These cameras' form factor fits their target market well and adding more buttons would turn them into something else with a different target market.

Note my comment about the target market. The D850 user is not the target market for the Z6 and Z7. The D610 / 780 user is. That target market will be satisfied with a Z8 and/or Z9.

A note on the second card slot. Thom made a comment about including m.2 solid state memory in a camera, partially eliminating the need for a second card slot. I can see a lot of merit in that approach.

photobunny

A m.2 SSD comes at the cost of at least one CF Express as it will eat PCIe lanes. But the bigger worry is how you keep it cool. CF Express card run hot, m.2 SSDs run exceptionally hot and the latest models need a heat seek on them. This is fine in a huge workstation or even a laptop where it is piggybacking some airflow from the GPU and/or CPU, but not in a cramped camera body. At least if a CF Express card gets hot you can take it out for five minutes.

PB_PM

WestEndFoto said:

I
Note my comment about the target market. The D850 user is not the target market for the Z6 and Z7. The D610 / 780 user is. That target market will be satisfied with a Z8 and/or Z9.

The price points and spec sheets say otherwise. At launch the Z7 was the same price as the D850 at launch. Same is true for the Z7II. I think Nikon truly see the Z7II as the mirrorless D850, and the Z6II as the mirrorless D780. No question about it. Performance isn’t there for action shooting, but for portraits, landscapes, still life and macro they are on par, no questions asked. That is my feeling after only a few days of use. Will it take another generation for mirrorless to surpass the D850? Yes. Is mirrorless right for action shooters today, no. I don’t see a Z8 or Z9 changing that, unless they slap in quad processors or something like that. I didn’t believe it until I did real life shooting, but Z bodies are very close. Additional firmware changes could easily make up some of the gap.

Button layout had to change to meet the demand for smaller, lighter weight bodies. I don’t have bear hands, so I don’t find it too small, and this is coming from someone who really loves the grip of the D850. In all honesty, I am very quickly coming to like the small body, even with big glass, something I did not expect. If I was using it on a gimbal, that would be a different story, I would need a battery grip to improve balance. The buttons might not seem to be ideal, but for the most part it is workable. I suspect it will come down to making some in shoot workflow changes. Most of the button issues go away once you have the user modes (U1-U3) setup for different shooting needs. Haven’t got that far yet. For the most part is really just a case of muscle memory, at least for me. It’s a different way of shooting that you have to wrap your head around, and it takes time for those long entrenched in the SLR way of shooting. At least that’s my initial impression.

photobunny

PB_PM said:

Button layout had to change to meet the demand for smaller, lighter weight bodies. I don’t have bear hands, so I don’t find it too small, and this is coming from someone who really loves the grip of the D850. In all honesty, I am very quickly coming to like the small body, even with big glass, something I did not expect.

I can really echo this, I was not expecting to like a small body as I came from a gripped Canon 5Dii which feels huge. But once you get the Z 70-200 f/2.8 on it, which is about as big as it gets just now, the balance seems to be right where I want it. I feel a gripped body is just for more buttons now and so my pinky doesn't sit under the body.

WestEndFoto

photobunny said:

A m.2 SSD comes at the cost of at least one CF Express as it will eat PCIe lanes. But the bigger worry is how you keep it cool. CF Express card run hot, m.2 SSDs run exceptionally hot and the latest models need a heat seek on them. This is fine in a huge workstation or even a laptop where it is piggybacking some airflow from the GPU and/or CPU, but not in a cramped camera body. At least if a CF Express card gets hot you can take it out for five minutes.

Well, unless you intend to fill up the entire SSD with one burst, I would think this could be managed. I am sure that Thom understood this when he suggested it.

WestEndFoto

PB_PM said:

WestEndFoto said:

I
Note my comment about the target market. The D850 user is not the target market for the Z6 and Z7. The D610 / 780 user is. That target market will be satisfied with a Z8 and/or Z9.

The price points and spec sheets say otherwise. At launch the Z7 was the same price as the D850 at launch. Same is true for the Z7II. I think Nikon truly see the Z7II as the mirrorless D850, and the Z6II as the mirrorless D780. No question about it. Performance isn’t there for action shooting, but for portraits, landscapes, still life and macro they are on par, no questions asked. That is my feeling after only a few days of use. Will it take another generation for mirrorless to surpass the D850? Yes. Is mirrorless right for action shooters today, no. I don’t see a Z8 or Z9 changing that, unless they slap in quad processors or something like that. I didn’t believe it until I did real life shooting, but Z bodies are very close. Additional firmware changes could easily make up some of the gap.

Button layout had to change to meet the demand for smaller, lighter weight bodies. I don’t have bear hands, so I don’t find it too small, and this is coming from someone who really loves the grip of the D850. In all honesty, I am very quickly coming to like the small body, even with big glass, something I did not expect. If I was using it on a gimbal, that would be a different story, I would need a battery grip to improve balance. The buttons might not seem to be ideal, but for the most part it is workable. I suspect it will come down to making some in shoot workflow changes. Most of the button issues go away once you have the user modes (U1-U3) setup for different shooting needs. Haven’t got that far yet. For the most part is really just a case of muscle memory, at least for me. It’s a different way of shooting that you have to wrap your head around, and it takes time for those long entrenched in the SLR way of shooting. At least that’s my initial impression.

The price and performance suggest otherwise, but the ergonomics do not.

And does the price. These cameras are significantly cheaper than their Canon counterparts. I think the prices are more about the new low volume reality.

I think that they will always stuff as much performance as possible in the body size and price point. The performance of a D5600 far exceeds that of a D2, but the D5600 cannot touch a D2 on ergonomics.

And in the long run, performance has nothing to do with megapixels and frame rates. It is ergonomics. A careful contemplation of Nikon in the film era will illustrate this.

I hear your comments on the ergonomics, but I hope that is not what Nikon is really thinking. Because if Nikon thinks that and Canon offers something that has high resolution matched with a larger form factor (D850 plus grip) I am switching to Canon. Their professional lenses are roughly on par with Nikon, so why not? I will use those dinky Z 6II and Z 7II toys for my AIS lenses.

I don't think that will happen though. I think that the following applies:

Camera and lens law:

For high performance cameras and lenses, the physical size will inflate to the largest possible practical size to carry.

I think that lenses in the Sony system (and Canon and especially Nikon) have illustrated this. Their bodies have not grown in size much, but that is because Sony hasn't had to compete against Canon and Sony on performance, which is ergonomics as I said above, until now.

PB_PM

I have no doubt that Nikon will launch a higher end, larger body, at higher price point to match the D6. Never said otherwise. I suspect it will still be smaller and lighter than the D6 though.

In any case we were taking about the current full frame Z bodies equivalent the D780 (Z6 II) and D850 (Z7 II), not the D6 type body. Nikon has to try something different than what they have done in the past, because guess what, it isn’t selling anymore. I know many people who own a DSLR, an older one at that, that love the image quality, but hate the size, so they just use a cell phone. Nikon has to fight that to succeed in the future. Like it or not, the new bodies will be smaller. I personally think Nikon has done a great job at balancing the system out. It feels great with a 70-200mm F2.8 lens.

Making the argument that the Z7II isn’t a D850 equivalent because it’s not as big as a D6 is a straw mans argument, and you know it.

Equivalent higher end Canon bodies have commanded a higher price point for over a decade, nothing has changed. The 5D was more expensive than a D700, the 5D MkIV was more than a D800E. The 5D R was more than the D810. Another straw mans argument. Nikon priced their bodies to compete with the A7 III and A7RIV.

snakebunk

A D6 equivalent in addition to the Z6 and Z7 series should be enough of fullframe Z mount cameras I think. Especially now that we have a battery grip. But what do I know .

WestEndFoto

PB_PM said:

Making the argument that the Z7II isn’t a D850 equivalent because it’s not as big as a D6 is a straw mans argument, and you know it.

Really? Are you aware of what you just accused me of?

A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person's argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making.

I am not sure you knew what a straw man argument really was until now. But if so, do you really think that I am capable of such a deceit? Or perhaps I just have a different point of view from you. And if someone with a different view is "deceitful", is there any room for a diversity of opinion on this forum?

And I could accuse you of deliberately distorting my argument, because a careful consideration of the argument would show that I am not actually saying that. But I think lazy thinking is more likely.

Anyways, I will let you reflect on that and then continue the discussion at a later time.

PB_PM

Nothing to reflect on, I stand by what I said.

photobunny

The Canon R5 and the Nikon Z6 to Z7 ii are physically around the same size and weight. The Z7 and Z7 ii are the D850 replacements and compete well with the D850. They might not be a big enough jump for an individual, but they are the replacements.

The upcoming Z8 or Z9 will sit beside the D6 and eventually replace that body. If you want a better D850 I strongly feel you will be waiting for a Z7iii. Other than a pre-gripped body, these bodies aren't likely getting bigger. Unless Nikon plans to be at a competitive disadvantage by having a A7/R5 competitor that is significantly larger and heavier than the competition.

WestEndFoto

PB_PM said:

Nothing to reflect on, I stand by what I said.

Thank you PB_PM for admitting that. Let your comment stand for the record and all to see. I will no longer feel compelled to give you the benefit of the doubt.

WestEndFoto

photobunny said:

The Canon R5 and the Nikon Z6 to Z7 ii are physically around the same size and weight. The Z7 and Z7 ii are the D850 replacements and compete well with the D850. They might not be a big enough jump for an individual, but they are the replacements.

The upcoming Z8 or Z9 will sit beside the D6 and eventually replace that body. If you want a better D850 I strongly feel you will be waiting for a Z7iii. Other than a pre-gripped body, these bodies aren't likely getting bigger. Unless Nikon plans to be at a competitive disadvantage by having a A7/R5 competitor that is significantly larger and heavier than the competition.

Perhaps. But I hope not. If people don't like the large size, they can get a Z 7II. Don't get me wrong. The Z 6II and Z7II are well designed cameras that fit their target market perfectly in my opinion. I just don't believe that target market includes people like me that want lots of customizable buttons and other ergonomic considerations. And I don't believe that the Z 7II is an R5 competitor and Nikon should not try to make a direct competitor to the R5. I think they can have a "value" competitor (The Z 7II is significantly cheaper than the R5) and a performance competitor - which could be something about $1,700/$1,000 more expensive than a Z 7II/R5 respectively. For that money I would expect Nikon to nail the ergonomics and stuff every last little bit of performance, features and reliability into the camera that they can muster. Perhaps it is a Z8/Z8r with 20/60mp respectively.

photobunny

The R5 seems currently priced above his class as it is too close to the Sony A9 in price, but that is due to a void; the R1.

donaldejose

I agree with WEF. It is not the megapixel comparison or the price comparison some of you guys make that counts. It is the "pro" body style vs the "advanced amateur" body style that counts. Nikon divided its DSLR line up into two groups and created subgroups within those groups. The crop sensor bodies and the full frame bodies are the two groups. The Z50 is the only crop sensor mirrorless body to date and the Z5, Z6 and Z7 are the only full frame sensor mirrorless bodies to date. A lot of the line is yet to be built out so we can only speculate as to how it will develop. The "pro" and the "amateur or advanced amateur" body styles were the two subgroups. The D300 and the D500 were/are the only two "pro" body style bodies in the crop sensor group (after the D3 came out - the D1 and D2 were pro body style crop sensor bodies but are too old for this discussion). The full frame group had/has two body styles. The D600, D610, D750 and D780 were/are the "advanced amateur body style." The D800, D850, D3, D4, D5 and D6 were the "pro" body styles. Advanced amateur and pro body styles used/use a different control layout and the "pro" bodies had/have a more robust build. You could further subdivide the "pro" body styles between add on vertical grip (D800, D850) and built-in vertical grip (D3, D4, D5, D6. So far Nikon mirrorless has released a Z6 and a Z7 which I believe replace the D610 and D750 DSLR models in that they will be the new form factor and "advanced amateur body style" control layout for Z bodies. I think the Z5 is an new "entry level" full frame body which did not exist in the DSLR line. Nikon has yet to release the "pro" mirrorless body style which will be the Z8 and Z9. You can expect them to have a more robust build and a different control layout. I believe we will see the Z8 out in 2021 and then we will all see if WEF and I are correct or if you other guys are correct because the Z8 will reveal whether or not it has a more robust build and a different control layout. It so, it is the true mirrorless replacement for the D850. A big question is whether or not the Z8 will have a built in vertical grip or will remain a body with an add on vertical grip. Odds are it will copy the D850 in that it will have an add on grip. Another big question is whether Nikon will produce two versions of either the Z8 or the Z9 like they did with the D3, and D3x. For example, the Z8 could have a 60 mp sensor and the Z9 could have a 24mp sensor focused on speed for sports, action, wildlife while a Z9h could use the 60mp Z8 sensor focused on landscape and studio ultimate image quality in an ultimate tough body. It should be easy to reuse the high megapixel Z8 sensor in a Z9 body at the cost of maybe just $100 more and reduced fps. But if the same sensor is used why buy a Z9h rather than just buy a Z8 and add a vertical grip at lower cost? All you would get would be a bit tougher body and few people are likely to feel they need that compared to the additional cost. But we will see. I don't expect the Z9 to be out until 2022 so we have plenty of time for new developments and rumors.

snakebunk

Isn't it very hard to predict future cameras when we don't know about the technical restrains? For example, if there is a new 20 mp sensor with extremely good iso handling there might be a reason to have two pro models, but if there is a really good new 40 mp sensor there may not be any reason to have more than one model. Also I don't think we know how much data future cameras can handle and how different pixel densities and pdaf setups affect af etc. My guess is that Nikon has a number of different draft designs and then selects one or two of them based on market analysis.

Personally I like big camera bodies but I don't think it will be worth the cost for me to use a new pro model.