D600 Dust/Oil/Lubricant Issue discussion/Discontinuation and price reductions

spraynpray

@PB_PM: That maybe but somewhere among the data there is the answer to the problem for sure. That is the way these things are analysed. When I worked as an engineer in industry I was the guy that flew around the world when a customer said that there was a problem. Most of the time it was their problem but when it wasn't we 'fessed up and acted appropriately in terms of speed, quality of fix and reimbursement of costs. Of course that last one isn't going to happen to D600 owners, but we needed to see the first three a long time ago.

PB_PM

If Nikon handled it that way the D600 would have been fixed within a month of the issue first showing up, but it is over 6 months since the issue became widely known about, yet no real fix is available. What does that tell you? To me it says this about Nikon

A) They don't care as long as they sell, or b) cannot find a solution within the production budget so they are just hoping people don't hear about the issue and buy the camera. Seriously, what other explanations could there be? I mean Nikon has been making shutters for F mount cameras for over 50 years, I'm sure they known what they are doing! So the question is, what's the issue here?

Msmoto

One of the issues is we do not know what percentage of new D600 bodies have the problem. Nikon may have it corrected to a 10% contamination rate and finds this acceptable. Also, the number of old bodies which may have been rebuilt by Nikon and actually sold as new is unknown. And, I have no doubt with the current attitude of Nikon, this is a distinct possibility. A major cell phone service provider did this with cell phones years ago...

So, we are in the dark and I cannot imagine how Nikon can get out of this mess, maybe come out with a D600s utilizing a radically modified micro box/shutter mechanism.

spraynpray

Unfortunately I doubt it is as good as 10% contamination Tommie. To the best of my knowledge the only person I know who has had a problem D600 replaced and is now getting the same dust on sensor performance as any other product is Ton. If there were 90% good ones out there now I reckon we should have seen more than just that one good replacement - more like 10% are good I reckon.

They could at least change sensors FOC that are scratched by owners cleaning them as it is needed so often, but then that would be communication of a problem and lead to loss of face and hara-kiri or whatever.

donaldejose

Just checked mine for what it is worth. Last cleaned 1,627 exposures ago (at 4600 clicks). Now at 6227 clicks no new dust or oil spots have appeared.

spraynpray

Great Donald - glad to hear it. That makes two. Any advance on two?

I just had a look around D600 shots on Flickr and found lots of spots on shots down to f5.6 - now either they don't know or don't care about the problem. If they show on those very varied images, imagine what they look like against a light back ground from f11 onwards. @-)

donaldejose

Just a note to praise the D600 in this negative thread. Recently I have been alternating between a D800, a D600, a D7000 and occasionally a D5100 when I want light weight for just family snapshots. At first the D600 was annoying because of the spots and the small focus coverage area. Now that my spots are no longer an irritation and that I have become adjusted to the smaller focus area I can think of these different bodies in terms of their sensor performance alone. I do really like FX better than DX. I can see a significant improvement in image quality from FX compared to DX. The 36mp sensor is wonderful for capturing lots of detail when detail is important in an image. However, most of the time that much detail is not needed. The 24mp FX sensor in the D600 is a wonderful sensor. For portraiture it captures more detail and skin tonal range that you usually need. I almost always grab the D600 for portraits these days (just posted one on PAD today which is a horizontal crop from a vertical portrait). I have also used it to shoot sports. While the buffer is small, you can deal with that by shooting bursts and timing your shots. High ISO performance is great. Of course, the D600 is not a D4 when it comes to speed or image quality at high ISO. But it really is a great camera. In my case the spots seem to have been from "dirty" parts and "excess" lubricant which simply required a few irritating cleanings. It is not really as big a deal as one would think from all the coverage on the internet. It is not a "flawed" camera, just an "imperfect" one. I see a Nikon refurbished D600 for only $1,589.00 at adorama. http://www.adorama.com/searchsite/default.aspx?searchinfo=refurbished+D600 I would purchase one in a heartbeat if I didn't already have more camera's than I can shoot. It wasn't long ago that many people claimed Nikon would never sell an FX sensor body for less than $3,000 and rumors of a FX D600 for $1,500 were ridiculed as "never will happen." Well, we are there now and the camera is really great even if you have to clean that senor a few times a year at first.

spraynpray

So exactly how many times did you (or anybody) clean the sensor in your camera in total Donald?

donaldejose

I have cleaned my D600 sensor three times. One of those times I had to use the wet process twice because one spot didn't come off with the first pass. So is that 4 cleanings just because I used 4 wet pads or is it 3 cleanings because I cleaned the sensor 3 times? Some pros clean their sensors many times a month as a part of normal maintenance so I don't see the D600 problem as being as bad as it is claimed to be.

spraynpray

Very interesting Donald. thanks for the clarification. FWIW I see that as 3 cleans. I am staggered that you didn't say a number like 10 - 20!

I wonder how much it varies from camera to camera - some people here have cited low numbers of clicks (30 is the lowest I remember) after a clean before seeing significant numbers of spots again. Under those circumstances it is hard to imagine only three cleans getting them past 200 let alone 6000 clicks.

MikeGunter

Hi all,

I'm 'guessing' that the imperfection in the camera is permanent and pervasive. If there was a 'fix', it would be announced with ruffles and flourishes.

Seeing the flaw plainly everytime is another matter. Its never been a matter of great concern for some who 'live' in the wide apertures or where subject matter could possibly mask troubling spots.

Furthermore, cleaning any sensor after a several thousand shots is always a good idea.

@donaldejose I really am glad that you are happy with the D600 and I truly would like everyone that has the camera (or any camera for that matter) to be equally happy with their camera, too. But I don't think that the D600 is bargain at any price. If you were to do a micro shot at an f36.0 on a very light background, you might be disappointed - I hope not - but I want to encourage potential caution to anyone with a pocketbook and tight budget just to be aware.

My best,

Mike

catfish252

I doubt if it could be the sensors -- that in itself would be an easy fix for Nikon -- Hey Sony these sensors are bad send us a new batch and renegotiate the price on them since we had to fix x number of cameras. I believe that it would have to be the mirror box or the shutter assembly, and like PB_PM said they just aren't dealing with it. Isn't Canon in the same office park in Thailand? Perhaps we have a little corporate sabotage going on here. A few Canon employees climbing over the fence at night. Some day they'll catch the guy with the can of WD-40 in his pocket. Until then there will be a lot of sleepless nights for the D600 crew.

donaldejose

MikeGunther: macro at f36 on a light background? Haven't tried that, will do it sometime. Are you suggesting the light background will show spots on the sensor or are you saying the sensor itself will show too much lack of sharpness at f36? Can you clarify? It may be for macro shots at very high f=stops a lower megapixel sensor works best. Has anyone done such a comparison, say between a D3 and a D800 when both are shot at f36?

PB_PM

That depends on the lens used, more so than the camera. Most macro lenses have far better diffraction characteristics than standard lenses.

Paperman

That depends on the lens used, more so than the camera. Most macro lenses have far better diffraction characteristics than standard lenses.

I've repeated it many times but I will say it once more.

Diffraction is not lens related. Diffraction calculations are made for the "perfect" lens ( in other words - no lens .... just the capability of human eye to see )

One can naturally get lenses that have better sharpness/resolution, but the diffraction limit does not change ; it is the same for every lens. Only sensor size will make a difference.

drwevil

Hi
the serial of mine starts with an 8 and I just put it in for service for dust spot. It has 3000 clicks on the shutter and Ive had it only 2 months.
I followed what to do in the user manual and it didnt help so in it goes.

I actually emailed Nikon Asia Pacific and they assured me the issue had been fixed....it seems it has not.

just a bit disappointing but we will see.

smadman

I (and I'm willing to bet everyone else here) would love to see a copy of that email, @drwevil!

roombarobot

I am still thrilled to not have my D600 anymore.

But these problems have made me wonder why modern CCD/CMOS cameras need a shutter anyway? Couldn't one handle that by just reading out the CMOS for whatever time the exposure was? Or can that not be controlled down to the 1/4000 or 1/8000 a second yet?

PB_PM

That is a good question, earlier Nikon bodies (D50, D70) had a combination of a mechanical and electronic shutter. The real advantage was that it allowed for a flash sync speed of up to 1/500s. My guess is using an electronic shutter uses more power, because the sensor needs to be turned on more, but that's just a guess.

ads

why modern CCD/CMOS cameras need a shutter anyway? ...can that not be controlled down to the 1/4000 or 1/8000 a second yet?

The Nikon 1 J series goes quite nicely without a mechanical shutter, I think the V2 is capable of 1/16000 shutter speeds so that isn't an issue.

But of course they are mirrorless.

Maybe its because mechanical shutters sound cooler :-)

[Deleted User]

Checked my photo's made with the 60mm f/2.8 macro and found that I made 49 with f/22 and 12 with f/32, but just a couple with a white background. Most of the time I crop a little bit. I put it back to the original size and found no problems on the white background photo's. It tells nothing of course, only that I just make photo's.

Years ago I shot a lot of blossoms with my D300 in the spring, bright sun, blue sky, f/11 and I had a lot of work on the dust spots. From that day, I always give it a Giotto blow, when I change lenses.

When you look at DxO, they measured a dynamic range you can find in a mid frame camera, that is what I see in my photo's and think that the D600 is a bargain, with a problem, where you have to be lucky to get the good one. I also have it in my bag with the 50mm f/1.8 on it, for me that is my pocket camera.

richbriggs28

This is the response received today from Nikon to my question about dirt & oil issues on the D600!

Thank you for your email.

Although there is no confirmed known issue with the D600, Nikon have received some reports of matter on the sensor and are currently monitoring and investigating this. However we have yet to confirm if accumulation of matter on the sensor is due to a design issue.

As with any DSLR, the conditions the camera is kept in are vital in terms of keeping the camera free of dust and marks and Nikon have yet to see if this issue is any more frequent with the D600 than with any other of our models on the market.

If customers do notice issues with any new camera, our best advice would always be to either return the camera to the point of sale for a refund or replacement (you would need to check the stores policy on this before purchasing) or send your equipment directly to to the Nikon Service Centre for a full service and clean if necessary.

Before returning the camera for cleaning, we would recommend that customers follow the guidance from the User’s Manual (pages 301-305) related to the “Clean Image Sensor” function and manual cleaning using a blower. If these measures do not remove all dust particles and you are still experiencing problems, then please consult the Nikon Service Centre on 0330 123 0928 and press option 3 in the menu.

In the mean time, any service advisory notices or product recalls would be displayed on the Nikon UK homepage via the link below:

Answer Title: Nikon UK Homepage
Answer Link: http://www.europe-nikon.com/en_GB/

If you have any further questions please feel free to update this email at any time and I would be more than happy to help.

Kind Regards,

Niamh Gannon
Nikon Europe Support

Sato

Two new pages of reply's in the weeks I didn't bother to look anymore, And still no real confirmation from Nikon about the problem or a definitive fix.

All I Know for certain is that my parent's will come back form there vacation this weekend, And that my dad will be able to drive me to the service center soon.
Where I will turn in my camera and won't accept it back before they've done some substantial testing after the shutter replacement, I'll give them permission to go up to 10.000 Shutter actuation's as I can't imagine oil/lubricant still being a problem after that.
Don't care about some dust after that as long as its removable with a blower and I get my camera back capable of taking f/16 photo's without spots on them I'd be perfectly happy. And ready to move on as if nothing ever happened. But perhaps more import get back into photography, Something I haven't cared about for 6 months now thanks to this whole D600 sensor gunk thing.

spraynpray

10,000 clicks - AY CARAMBA! I would be pi$$ed to give away that much value because they can't do it right! No, I would go for new shutter.

I wish I knew somebody I could trust to tell me the real truth on this. Although I fear the worst, I do wonder if it is the ease of communication via the internet that is distorting the issue so it looks like everybody (nearly) has a problem but in reality it is (say) 10% as guesstimated before on this thread.

I did get told that they never had returns anymore by one large UK retailer, but I did get the impression that he was being economical with the truth.

proudgeek

"....economical with the truth."

I need to remember that.