D7200 Pre release and early adopters discusion

WestEndFoto

You speak to my second paragraph's point.

spraynpray

@WestEndFoto: I am writing about the D750 I own and the D7100 I own. I am not guessing based on reviews or DxOmark's 'metrics'. If the expected spec of the D7200 is right, then there will be a further diminishing of the already smaller difference between DX and FX than there was previously. I don't use my cameras exclusively in fair to good light, I also use them in virtually no light which is at the extreme and where differences are easy to see. See my PAD shot taken with the D7100 on a moonless night for evidence.

You talk about the laws of physics, I simply write of my own actual experience. I do not 'big up' things that I have bought because I have bought them {and therefore they must be the best) and I have to tell you that in my certain experience, the difference between my newest FX and my not newest DX, is smaller than you imagine. No, the difference between DX and FX is getting to be less and less important in the area of noise too. It was once important, but now less so and getting less.

By the way, don't be scared to call me out by name if you disagree with anything I say.

heartyfisher

agree with you spraynpray.. even if the gap between fx and dx high iso were 1 stop ( i would say on average its about 2/3 of a stop) the overall difference in capabilities are getting relatively less between FX and DX

donaldejose

No one disagrees that size matters. But note that Coastalconn and I were comparing current DX generation vs. last generation FX. When both DX and FX are using the same technology, FX will be ahead. But when a DX body is using technology a generation ahead of that used in an FX body, the DX body can be closer than one stop behind.

manhattanboy

Perfect for me :-)
[...]
Upgrading to D7200 will mean
* a nice jump in MP for me from 16 to 24.
* Nice jump in lowlight in DX but not my system as a whole since I have the D610 which has a great lowlight sensor.
* 1.3 DX crop, Gets me a 2X crop mode which extends my system range to 400mm. plus I have a 1.4TC that makes a very respectable 560mm capability at F5.6 ! I have been using my nikon1V1 for tele shots of birds but this setup should be heaps better.!
* Much better AF with my 70-200 F4 (and 1.3 crop) should open up lot of options with bird photos and other wildlife!

Yup.. upgrading my D7000 to the [...]

Why wait? EVERYTHING on your list is done by the 7100, which now at refurb and sale prices would be MUCH better value than the retail price of the 7200.

This is also why the 7100 folks are a little bit let down. The 7000 was a great camera that Nikon managed to make the best bang for the buck in the Nikon lineup by bringing in top of the line AF, a higher res DX sensor sans AA, built in crop mode with a speed boost, etc. What does the 7200 bring to the shooting table?

Remember that even Samsung is now producing higher res sensors and cameras with faster AF. The way I look at it is that Canon and Nikon are likely refusing to stay ahead of the DX competition and are content to know that switching systems requires tremendous inertia and money. In essence Nikon threw in the towel on DX this year and literally told everyone to "buy FX" if they needed a camera.

Photobug

That is what I am expecting. And the D7200 should be better than the D7100. I would expect a similar difference between the D610 -> D750. for high ISO the key things would be
* Expeed 4 - faster processor, better noise processing.
* New sensor - We dont really know how much more advanced it is. ie is it a small tweak or has it got more new tech than even the D750 has. Has it got the undefined D810 tech that allows more light into the edges of the sensor? has it got the ISOCell style tech from the NX1? they may need to reply to the great specs of the NX1 sensor. Maybe its just more advanced video capabilities.

----------------------------------------------------------------
@heartyfisher - Those are the questions!. That separates a normal upgrade to a great refined upgrade. Hopefully by the end of the month Peter will have some more solid rumors.

Photobug

I'll stick with what I have for the present .... there's no way yer gonna make me spend money on another body upgrade .... I refuse to be influenced by your assertions of improvements .... I'm standing firm .... must resist .... {wimper}

It's good you stand so firmly in not buying new gear. Careful your sliding and the next thing you know you will have NAS. That always has a negative impact on savings accounts. LoL =D> )

Photobug

I definitely think that so much hinges on how much of an upgrade the sensor is, because the rest of the specs don't really impress. If they can get that DX sensor into a Dx0 mark rating in the upper 80s, I think a lot of people who are saying "nope" might suddenly show some interest.

+1 @PitchBlack. It's really going to come down to refinements (my opinion) and some thing special (DX sensor) as you said to move D7100 owners to upgrade. Hopefully we won't have to wait too long for answers on the sensor and sensor performance.

For someone with a tight budget wanting to move up from a D3XXX or D5XXX series camera to the D7XXX family, the prices on new and refurbished D7100 are great buys. Great time for those individuals looking to move up to a better camera.

WestEndFoto

@WestEndFoto: I am writing about the D750 I own and the D7100 I own. I am not guessing based on reviews or DxOmark's 'metrics'. If the expected spec of the D7200 is right, then there will be a further diminishing of the already smaller difference between DX and FX than there was previously. I don't use my cameras exclusively in fair to good light, I also use them in virtually no light which is at the extreme and where differences are easy to see. See my PAD shot taken with the D7100 on a moonless night for evidence.

You talk about the laws of physics, I simply write of my own actual experience. I do not 'big up' things that I have bought because I have bought them {and therefore they must be the best) and I have to tell you that in my certain experience, the difference between my newest FX and my not newest DX, is smaller than you imagine. No, the difference between DX and FX is getting to be less and less important in the area of noise too. It was once important, but now less so and getting less.

By the way, don't be scared to call me out by name if you disagree with anything I say.

Sorry Spraynpray. My comments reflected my impression after reading the whole thread and it seemed like a notion not attributable to a single person. By the time I got to the end of the thread, I had forgotten who said what.

But for the record, I stand by what I said, so I suppose I disagree with you. If you take an FX sensor and trim that actual FX sensor to the size of a DX sensor, the reduction in noise performance will be the area of the FX sensor divided by the area of the DX sensor.

Now in practice there is no FX/DX sensor combo that I am aware of that is comparable on this basis. However my own experience with CX, DX and FX sensors gives me real world confidence that supports this.

WestEndFoto

But none of this diminishes the D7100 and any replacement being offered. Both are great cameras.

proudgeek

This seems like a very nice camera, particularly for someone upgrading from something like a D3100 or a D90 looking to jump to the next level. It is, however, not the second body I'm waiting for to pair with my D800. I'll wait, because I'm in no rush.

Photobug

So now lets talk $$$$. 15 months ago I paid $1147 for the D7100 body and the normal price was $1197. Love those instant rebates. Three months ago it was selling for $1099 to $999 and today on B&H it's a nickel less than $897. The D5300 is $696.97 and the D610 is $1496.97.

So Nikon added Wi-Fi, tilt screen, and updated the processor. My initial thought was that Nikon will price the D7200 at $1,400 to $1,500. That is too close to the D610. So perhaps a $1250 to $1300 range is more reasonable. What are your thoughts on pricing?

Capt_Spaulding

I have a 5100 and several FX lenses. For the last year of so I have been weighing my upgrade options. I'm torn between biting on a 7100 and saving my pennies and dimes for a 750. The reality is I am not good enough at this point to use all the 5100 has to offer, A 750 would be like hunting deer with a 50BMG. That said, the 7100 has a number of features I find attractive, resolution and focus adjustment at or near the top of the list. Were does the 7200 fit? I just don't see it as offering enough of an improvement over the 7100 to draw me in. I have no doubt what it will do will satisfy the itches of a number of folks, I just don't think I'm one of them. It's possible, the sensor performance of the 7200 will tip the scales. At present, I'm just hoping it drives the prices for new 7100s under $800.

Sports

So now lets talk $$$$. What are your thoughts on pricing?

1200 is my first guess. Nikon bodies (except for the DF) all have attractive prices. Camera BODIES is a competitive market, so Nikon cannot just raise the price by 20%.
So, for those specs ... below 1300 that's for sure.

spraynpray

@WestEndFoto: I am writing about the D750 I own and the D7100 I own. I am not guessing based on reviews or DxOmark's 'metrics'. If the expected spec of the D7200 is right, then there will be a further diminishing of the already smaller difference between DX and FX than there was previously. I don't use my cameras exclusively in fair to good light, I also use them in virtually no light which is at the extreme and where differences are easy to see. See my PAD shot taken with the D7100 on a moonless night for evidence.

You talk about the laws of physics, I simply write of my own actual experience. I do not 'big up' things that I have bought because I have bought them {and therefore they must be the best) and I have to tell you that in my certain experience, the difference between my newest FX and my not newest DX, is smaller than you imagine. No, the difference between DX and FX is getting to be less and less important in the area of noise too. It was once important, but now less so and getting less.

By the way, don't be scared to call me out by name if you disagree with anything I say.

Sorry Spraynpray. My comments reflected my impression after reading the whole thread and it seemed like a notion not attributable to a single person. By the time I got to the end of the thread, I had forgotten who said what.

But for the record, I stand by what I said, so I suppose I disagree with you. If you take an FX sensor and trim that actual FX sensor to the size of a DX sensor, the reduction in noise performance will be the area of the FX sensor divided by the area of the DX sensor.

Now in practice there is no FX/DX sensor combo that I am aware of that is comparable on this basis. However my own experience with CX, DX and FX sensors gives me real world confidence that supports this.

OK, no worries.

Now it's my turn to disagree with you :-) What's all that cropping stuff? I used a 16mm on the D7100 and a 24mm on the D750 so both images are full resolution and directly comparable.

Photobug

I have a 5100 and several FX lenses. For the last year of so I have been weighing my upgrade options. I'm torn between biting on a 7100 and saving my pennies and dimes for a 750. The reality is I am not good enough at this point to use all the 5100 has to offer, A 750 would be like hunting deer with a 50BMG. That said, the 7100 has a number of features I find attractive, resolution and focus adjustment at or near the top of the list. Were does the 7200 fit? I just don't see it as offering enough of an improvement over the 7100 to draw me in. I have no doubt what it will do will satisfy the itches of a number of folks, I just don't think I'm one of them. It's possible, the sensor performance of the 7200 will tip the scales. At present, I'm just hoping it drives the prices for new 7100s under $800.

Even though the D7200 replaces the D7100, you can figure that the D7100 will be available for about 15 to 18 months after the D7200 is released. Will it drop below $800 soon...I don't think so in the short term. Based upon past replacements I think the D7100 price has dropped significantly over the past 2 months and would expect it to hold for the next 6 months. You probably will see it under $800 for Black Friday and Cyber Monday in November 2015. But that is just my guess. IT all comes down to how much inventory they have and how long they want to sell them.

An alternative, watch the NIkon USA web site for a refurbished D7100. As they come down the new prices will drop. Again my opinion. And yes it sounds like the D7100 is a better fit for you rather than a D750 but only you can really make that decision.

Photobug

So now lets talk $$$$. What are your thoughts on pricing?

1200 is my first guess. Nikon bodies (except for the DF) all have attractive prices. Camera BODIES is a competitive market, so Nikon cannot just raise the price by 20%. So, for those specs ... below 1300 that's for sure.

I agree that the $1200 should be the target price. Just not sure what the delta increase would be with the new features/parts.

heartyfisher

Why wait? EVERYTHING on your list is done by the 7100, which now at refurb and sale prices would be MUCH better value than the retail price of the 7200.

You are right ! .. the D7100 is a good fit but for me not enough of a difference for me to upgrade. the other expected bits would be interesting. If nikon thinks they have put enough into the D7200 for people to upgrade from the D7100, I am keen to see what they have done. The new D7200 is also supposed to compete with the 7dm2 what has Nikon done to it that makes it a competitor? .. i am curious to see.

I may pick up a cheap d7100 after the D7200 gets announced. However, I kind of like the built in wifi and tilty screen (I love macro and tilty screen will be very nice for that). But I am most excited about the Expeed4 and new af.

spraynpray

Frankly I doubt the D7200 will beat the 7D2. My partner handled one (he has the mk1) and he is seriously amazed by it. I would not expect a prosumer Nikon to beat a new professional Canon really.

manhattanboy

I may pick up a cheap d7100 after the D7200 gets announced. However, I kind of like the built in wifi and tilty screen (I love macro and tilty screen will be very nice for that). But I am most excited about the Expeed4 and new af.

The wifi and tilt screen are very nice, and expeed 4 should result in speed improvements with the AF and hopefully frame rate. But these are not major improvements to the 7000 series line. Its more of a 7100S type of update unless they manage something special with the sensor. Having shot with both the 7000 and the 7100 I can say that the sensor and AF changes were indeed very significant between the two, more so than I had expected. If you had the money I would wait for the 7200 too just because having something newer is most of the time better. But if you are on a budget, the 7100 is a pretty significant upgrade. For distance I think of it like this: the 7100's higher res sensor sans AA filter coupled with a better AF gets me better results in 1.3x crop mode while maintaining the same picture quality I had with the 7000 at about the same megapixels. The difference is that one is zoomed in to 2x FF for the 7100 where as the 7000 is 1.5x FF. For someone shooting the 7000, moving to the 7100 is like having a built in 1.4 tc that actually improves autofocus without losing aperture stops. It was the cheaper option for me (LOL) to gain more distance than buying an expensive Nikon tele.

Frankly I doubt the D7200 will beat the 7D2. My partner handled one (he has the mk1) and he is seriously amazed by it. I would not expect a prosumer Nikon to beat a new professional Canon really.

I agree with ^^
If Canon would stick a freaking Sony sensor in the 7D2 I would be all over it. Love that new high speed & quiet shutter. The major trade off is the IQ, which is likely behind even the D7000 sadly. If only Canon had used a Sony sensor, then I would be shooting away with the 400 5.6 or the new 100-400.

snakebunk

About iso capability of fx vs dx:

I think that fx has a 2.25 times advantage when it comes to iso because the sensor is so much bigger. But, if you compare the dx crop of an fx camera to the full frame of a dx camera, you can make a fair comparison of the iso capabilities of the sensors. At least for me it is the most interesting way to compare fx to dx.

When the D7200 is released it would be interesting to se it compared to the dx crop of the D4s or some other fx camera.

BVS

The things that would make me seriously consider upgrading from the D7100 are unfortunately all things that are still unknown:

Image quality improvements
Metering improvements
Low light (and overall) auto-focus improvements
What else it on the market at the time

Guess I'll have to wait and see.

Photobug

Frankly I doubt the D7200 will beat the 7D2. My partner handled one (he has the mk1) and he is seriously amazed by it. I would not expect a prosumer Nikon to beat a new professional Canon really.

+1spraynpray...the D7200 will not beat the 7DMKII. There were discussions here that perhaps the D7200 would be upgraded to compete with the 7DMKII. Now that the preliminary rumor specs are out there it's evident that the D7200 IS NOT the Nikon to compete with the 7DMKII.

The D7200 is an incremental upgrade and as I said earlier, for those wanting to upgrade from D3XXX, D5XXX, and D7000.

Photobug

The things that would make me seriously consider upgrading from the D7100 are unfortunately all things that are still unknown:
Image quality improvements
Metering improvements
Low light (and overall) auto-focus improvements
What else it on the market at the time
Guess I'll have to wait and see.

Welcome to NRF BVS.
I feel the same way..at this point in time I don't see anything that makes me want to sell my D7100 and buy the D7200. Of course, that could change if the IQ and low light AF focusing improved significantly. Right now I don't see that it the specs. The D7200 is really for D7000 owners or those with the D3XXX and D%XXX owners wanting to upgrade their DSLRs.

sevencrossing

Frankly I doubt the D7200 will beat the 7D2.

It may not beat it on fps or on "pro" controls
The 7D2 might even have better high ISO performance
but a critical feature of any dx DSLR is price
I suspect the D7200 will win on bangs for your bucks