NIKON...MIRROR LESS NOW WITH FIRMWARE UPDATE

dissent

I'd like to see what this new Z-series sensor can do.

Especially with F-mount glass on an adapter.

henrik1963

Lot of strange comments here. I have held both Z6 and Z7 in my hands. Nice cameras. They seem to work fine even in their pre production state.

I have shot with a Fuji X-T1 for some time. Very nice camera. A lot of Nikon shooters have Fuji cameras because they are a joy to shoot.

Not long ago I would have to pay the same for a X-T2 + 16-55 F2.8 as I can now buy the new Nikon Z6 + 24-70 F4 for. What is not to like?

I am sure the full frame Nikon will be a better camera than the half frame Fuji.

If you don't like mirrorless that is fine. But don't freak out because the Z6 and Z7 is not a Hasselblad, a D5 or whatever you think it should be.

The Z6 and Z7 is more camera than 95 percent of us need.

I still enjoy shooting with my D800 - I just spend more time with my Fuji. Looking forward to swapping my Fuji for a Nikon - happy shooting.

Pistnbroke

quote ..

hardly anybody has said they lost a XQD.


Hope those " hardly anybodies " were insured against the $10,000 court case

Vipmediastar_JZ

Good point. They should have insurance to begin with.

I think whatever tech is inside the XQD is a reliable item. Someone mentioned they put their card thru a washer and drier and it still works. I did the same with a usb drive and I still use it.
Similar advancements to an SSD vs HDD. For SSD I would highly trust a Samsung one vs a Western digital SSD.
In the memory card I would trust Sandisk over lexar and Sony XQD vs another brand.

donaldejose

BUT, how many weddings were photographed with DSLRs with just one card slot before DSLRs with two card slots became readily available? Must have been a huge number and I wonder how many lost images actually occurred due to card failure? It must be very small risk and a wedding should be shot with two bodies and two shooters anyway. However, if that is a risk not worth taking just don't use the A7 or A6 body for wedding photography and wait for the A8 body which well may have two card slots. Also, we don't actually know how the built in WiFi is going to work. Can you create a WiFi hotspot with your cell phone or laptop and use WiFi to back-up to the cloud or your laptop as you shoot? If that doesn't exist wouldn't it just be a matter of creating software to do it since the camera has the WiFi available? Apparently, the WiFi in these new bodies will enable us to transfer our photos to our computers wirelessly. If so, why not transfer automatically on-the-fly to a laptop or cell phone in range of the camera?
I am just saying there may be other on-the-fly backup options in addition to a second memory card. If they don't exist now why cann't they be developed

manhattanboy

@henrik1963 I agree the Z6 will be a decent camera. My question to you is do you see the Z7 as worth it?
What bugs me is that Nikon is gouging their customers for $1,400 for a few more MP and arguably a worse AF system. It's those that want to drop their DSLRs for the new Z system entirely that can't because neither is sufficient to do so. It's like Nikon is trying to trap you into owning both systems, which just sucks. I don't like when others try to trap me or take advantage of me, but to each his own.

@Pistnbroke I've lost an XQD, but I've also lost SDs. If you are shooting all day and are trying to quickly changes cards you get tired and do stupid things. Humanity sucks, waiting for my unlimited stamina as a cyborg

donaldejose

"lost an XQD" card due to quickly changing cards. Seems a simple solution would be to purchase a larger capacity card so you don't need to take it out of the camera until you get home and just move it from camera to card reader to copy into your hard drive. "lost" is not a card failure.

tc88

Well 2x256GB XQD cards cost $1k. That's on top of the $2k for Z6. Same capacity top of the line SD cards (though the regular UHS-I standard) costs 1/4th of the price.

tc88

For people asking how users survive with 1 slot before, well then why don't they ask why people need digital cameras while they survived with film before, or why people need computer while they survived with TV before, or why they need TV while they survived with radio before.

The matter of the fact is that, as time goes by, technology improves, people's expectation of convenience and benefit increases. What used to be excellent is now the new norm, what used to be the norm is now subpar. The time for a single slot $3k wide use digital camera has passed. As simple as that.

manhattanboy

@donaldejose shooting at 10fps on the D500 will chew up xqds faster than a rabid dog biting through a steak. I try to "save" the xqds for when I need the speed and then shoot larger SDs but it's annoying to change to primary write card in the settings. A quick albeit dangerous work around is to just yank the XQD out and put it back when you need the speed. The nikons are smart enough to default to the XQD if it's in there.

For the one slot controversy, I have yet to meet a man that when offered two slots, wouldn't enjoy both

Ton14

I have something like this in my pocket:

https://www.pcmag.com/roundup/361227/the-best-wireless-hard-drives and make backups with my D7200 in an instant when I shoot. It goes direct to dropbox and my home server, but I have unlimited mobile data for 25 euro a month and when I'am home my photo's are on my computer, imported in Lightroom ready for post.

You need lots of spare batteries, 330 photo's is not much and a couple of XQD cards. Pro's have editors, where there photo is published in a couple of minutes with this system.

PS. you also can use your phone, tablet or laptop for this, only your phone get a little hot.

Something else,

I've read that the image quality is incredibly good from this camera's and that's the main thing for me and it has to be to compete with the D810 on 64 ISO.

DenverShooter

Just got back from shooting almost 5,000 images at a Porsche Club event (Ladies Day AKA Beauties and Their Beasts) at the Colorado State Patrol Track. Ran an 128GB XQD primary and 128GB CF in the secondary in the D4 with the Nikon 800mm F/5.6. Shot 10 frames a second bursts with the D4. Used my D800E with the Nikon 70mm to 200mm F/2.8 and 64GB SD primary and 64GB CF secondary. Filled up the XQD and put 100 or so images on the CF card by the end of the day. Didn't fill the SD card in the D800E. Been shooting that event for years and know what its going take. No card changes or battery swaps needed.

And while writing this I got an email from Phase One announcing their new XQ IQ4 150MP (151-megapixels) medium format camera system.

https://megapixelsdigital.com/iq4-infinite-possibilities/

And it uses XQD.

Before I would buy all new glass for mirrorless...


Denver Shooter

donaldejose

Denvershooter: As I understand it you are using one card as your primary and the second card as overflow, not as a duplicate backup, right? So if you had just one card slot and a larger card your images would be just as secure as they are now because you have no second card backup now, right? If your primary card failed you would just have the 100 images on the overflow card, right? A D4 is $6,000 and you shot it at 10 fps. A Z6 is $2,000 and it will shoot 12 fps. You can save $4,000 on the body. If you spend an extra $500 for a 256 mp XQD card and an extra $400 for the Z battery grip which is supposed to carry two batteries (and maybe even an adaptor for the D4 battery like you can get for the D500 and D850) you will have spend a total of $3,000 for the same performance as you now get for $6,000. You are no less secure with only one larger card because you are using your send card slot for overflow now so currently every single image you take now is only on one card anyway. How is that not a win? Add to that the ability to use the new PF telephoto glass and you have a much lighter weight option. For an additional $1,400 you can have 47 mp to crop more when you shoot with a 500 rather than 800 mm lens and you lose only 1 fps (from 10 to 9). That gives you a total cost for a A7 system of $4,400 vs. $6,000, not counting the lens. The new 500 mm PF is $3,600 while a 800 mm f5.6 is $16,300 for an additional savings of about $13,000. One advantage to shooting with a 500 mm and cropping rather than shooting with a 800 mm is that the cropped image will have greater depth of field because it will retain the depth of field of 500mm. It seems to me mirrorless and PF lenses are opening up new lighter weight options for those who use telephotos.

mhedges

tc88 said:

Well 2x256GB XQD cards cost $1k. That's on top of the $2k for Z6. Same capacity top of the line SD cards (though the regular UHS-I standard) costs 1/4th of the price.

Yeah they are pricey no doubt. But how many people really need 2x256 gig cards? Not that many. And if you really do need that much it's probably in situations where the cost isn't that hard to justify.

Actually shooting stills I would not use a card bigger than 64 GB on the Z6 so as to not have too many eggs in one basket. Even if they are as good as everyone says reliability wise there is still the risk of loss or theft. 64 GB should give a little over 2000 lossless compressed RAW images, which is plenty.

Ton14 said:

I have something like this in my pocket:

https://www.pcmag.com/roundup/361227/the-best-wireless-hard-drives and make backups with my D7200 in an instant when I shoot. It goes direct to dropbox and my home server, but I have unlimited mobile data for 25 euro a month and when I'am home my photo's are on my computer, imported in Lightroom ready for post.

You need lots of spare batteries, 330 photo's is not much and a couple of XQD cards. Pro's have editors, where there photo is published in a couple of minutes with this system.

PS. you also can use your phone, tablet or laptop for this, only your phone get a little hot.

Something else,

I've read that the image quality is incredibly good from this camera's and that's the main thing for me and it has to be to compete with the D810 on 64 ISO.

Not to nitpick but all reports are real world battery life is much better than 330 shots.

Vipmediastar_JZ

@donaldejose Good points. Different form factor, less money, great iq (images pending) I think its a hit but people are too focused on one spec.

I have always shot my second slot as an overflow. During an event I carry a hard memory case on my belt or harness to do quick changes. Last year I started using the second slot with a 256gb SD card for backup and using multiple xqd through out the day. Now, I have also shot the Df on events (d750 too) and with the Df I still applied the same rule. Swap out the sd cards multiple times to avoid a huge loss if one card goes bad.

If I would get Z's I would still get 32/64 xqd and swap out multiple times. For video I would use the largest xqd in my bag.

With tech there are so many variables. I had a shutter fail during a wedding. I had a backup camera but it was on the back of the room. I couldn't leave because the bride was walking down the isle. I started carrying two bodies since that day on my person but as of last year I went back to one with the second body in a small shoulder bag next to me. I mean we all are worried about the 2nd slot but how many wedding shooters only have 1 memory card/no backup body/no backup lens/no insurance/no backup shooter/no backup flash/no image backups at (computer fail)?

I think this body would be a great add on to our bags but as a full replacement system I would wait for the second gen.

DenverShooter

Lets see if Z6 is going to run for 300K shutter activations like my D4 which I have had since 2012 and we can start talking about $4K savings..

And I didn't need to add a grip with extra batteries to get the runtime or use an adapter to use the glass I have and BTW XQD has been 100% reliable since day one.

What you have with a Z6 or Z7 is a stripped 850 sensor without a mirror and a stripped D5 sensor without a mirror. There isn't any ground breaking tech here.

And you are saddled with a EVF with a very limited amount of dynamic range, very limited resolution, less battery life and an adapter to work with existing lenses. I don't see any upside here other than "smaller/lighter" body and a marginal increase in frame rate and frankly thats not enough to justify the Drain Bamage.

Do I really want to buy all new glass? Got a spare $45K? Before I buy all new glass I will move to medium format (PhaseOne new medium Format 150 MP back has me really thinking about it)

Do I care that the 800mm is heavy? Not particularly. I knew it was heavy when I ordered it. I usually sling it over my shoulder with it mounted on the Wimberley WH-200 head & Gitzo GT5541LS tripod and walk the 300 yards to the car. And I am 61.

I haven't shot crop frame since my D7000 days. There is a joke in here somewhere about real photographers don't shoot crop frame, but its not coming to me at the moment.

Folks are twisting themselves into pretzels trying to make mirrorless work. Grips, adapters, small animal sacrifices and lots of wallet emptying. You can always tell the first adopters of any new technology, they running around in circles with flaming arrows in their backs.

Mirrorless will probably be usable by the 4th or 5th generation for pros.

Somebody wake me up when they get it perfected.

In the meantime I am going to go out and shoot something with my heavy, antiquated full frame, mirrored D800E and D4 and all of my heavy, antiquated glass.

See you on the cover of next months RMR PCA High Gear Magazine with my D4 800mm vertical shot of the front straightaway at the track..

Denver Shooter.

henrik1963

@manhattanboy: Z6 and Z7 are first gen. Nikon mirrorless. I am sure both will be good enough for most work.
I am still at D800. For me the difference between D700 and D800 was huge. D800 to D810 to D850 was small compared to that. I can work around the limitations of the D800 and get the pictures I want. Would I prefer a D850? Yes! But not enough to drop more than §3k.
The story will probably be the same with Z6 and Z7 – next gen. will be better – not a lot but enough to make you want to upgrade
But what do you really need? I know we want way more than we need – lucky for Nikon
If I needed 45MP right now I would probably opt for a D850 over a Z7 because I would need the camera to make money. On the other hand I would probably get a Z6 over a D750 because I would want the camera for fun.
Or maybe I will reconsider once I see all the happy Z6 and Z7 owners and “Want” takes over the decision-making.

WestEndFoto

I am inclined to agree with you Denver Shooter. I am thinking of a Z as a walk around street camera as long as the adapter works well (meaning my F-mount glass will retain its value) but my main "machine" will be a D8xx series for some time. And if Nikon upgrades the 200 f/2.0, that will be my next lens.

mhedges

There's an interview up on the main page that says Nikon will be bundling an XQD card with the camera bodies for the first couple months at least. That's nice but typical bumbling Nikon marketing to not let buyers know about this properly.

spraynpray

@donaldejose: I'm not sure you are right about cropping/DoF there Don. DoF is based on CoC's and cropping makes the CoC's larger so the DoF gets shallower methinks. You can't fool physics!

mhedges

spraynpray said:

@donaldejose: I'm not sure you are right about cropping/DoF there Don. DoF is based on CoC's and cropping makes the CoC's larger so the DoF gets shallower methinks. You can't fool physics!

No he's right in the same way that crop sensor cameras have more DOF than full frame cameras given the same distance to subject and field of view. You have to magnify more with a full frame camera so you get less DOF (its about 1 F stop difference).

DenverShooter

I ran this and didn't see any difference.

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

Denver Shooter

spraynpray

Noooooo! One of us is wrong here...

mhedges

DenverShooter said:

I ran this and didn't see any difference.

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

Denver Shooter

spraynpray said:

Noooooo! One of us is wrong here...

I ran it and saw the difference.

DX body (I think I picked D5000) 300mm f/8 50 feet to subject 2.66 ft DOF
FX body (D800) 450mm (for same field of view) f/8 50 feet to subject 1.75 ft DOF

Now of course if you shoot the FX body at 300 mm and crop down to DX size you get the same 2.66 ft DX DOF. that’s what @donaldejose was saying, I think.

DenverShooter

I used the same focal length lens (50mm F 1.4) between FF and CF and (wait for it) no difference.