Nikon D610 discussion

PB_PM

It isn't a better quiet mode, it's continuous quiet mode (3FPS). Somehow I doubt it is firmware tweak...

Msmoto

My post was simply a cut/paste from "Spy_Black"..... I suspect Nikon has done significant redesign in the D610. They really need to have the problem fixed and if it were simply a tweak, I doubt this would cut down the garbage.

IMO the slightly faster FPS comes from a new shutter mechanism. I also suspect some ingenious person will tear down both and compare the shutters, giving us a heads up on the change. Where is Ren Crockwell when we need him?

spraynpray

"IMO the slightly faster FPS comes from a new shutter mechanism."

Yes. I believe the increased fps is simply because the new shutter allows it so they did it just because they could.

donaldejose

When it is out and torn down we will see just what parts are new. I suspect the shutter will be new. Just how different it will be I don't know. My suspicion as alway been the problem is more likely to be due to dust on a part or excess lubricant on a part rather than a flaw in the design of a part. Thus, once frequent cleanings get the excess dust out and once enough shutter actuations spit off all the excess lubricant the problem is solved. But, of course, I don't know for sure. Only time and a tear down of the D600 will tell.

spraynpray

I have to say I disagree with you every time you write that Donald, but this time I have to post. A shutter assy does not throw out so much dust because somebody 'didn't clean it' before installing it - that is such a simplistic description as to damage your credibility. Obviously there is a significant design flaw which leads to the generation of the dust. The lubricant? I struggle with that one but as wet lubricating parts is a notoriously difficult to control process I will resist trying to guess exactly the cause of that part of the problem.

Sorry to disagree mate.

donaldejose

No problem with any disagreement mate. Disagreement is often good and advances the analysis by pointing out flaws or weaknesses and suggesting other routes to take. I just don't like the lack of civility I sometimes see here.

Thom Hogan writes today: "In the typical repair report I'm seeing for cameras that have the problem Nikon is replacing the entire shutter mechanism. If that's the case with a camera you send in to Nikon, you should be fine after the repair. I've heard of no cases of repeating debris buildup after a shutter replacement."

How does a design flaw generate dust in a body when the lens has not been taken off? I would think all those metal parts don't generate any dust. Either the dust is brought in from outside or was on parts at the time of assembly. Simplistic maybe but how do metal parts generate dust? Perhaps when the D610 is torn down and we can compare the two shutters we will be able to see the difference.

Ade

One theory / rumors / speculation is that one part of the old shutter is physically 'scraping' another part of the shutter, dislodging some material in the process -- perhaps lubricant and other debris -- which then become seen on the sensor as 'dust'.

So the problem isn't simply excess dust or lubrication, but the 'scraping' action of the shutter. Over time, less material will be dislodged, but the problem may never completely go away unless/until the touching parts eventually wear out.

spraynpray

@donaldejose: Ade's post beat me to the draw on this but it is my expectation that the dust is 'finish' from the poorly designed shutter departing the surface due to some bad design causing rubbing or whatever not just dust left in there by - say - manufacturing it in a dirty location and not cleaning it before assembly. All parts of the process of manufacturing parts for, and final assembly of, cameras would be carried out in clean and controlled environments but if the component generates dust with each actuation, then the best you can expect with yours is a gradual slow down - but maybe never complete stop - in the production of the contamination. That is my firm belief based on my engineering profession experience of finding and analysing reasons for equipment failures in the field.

Msmoto

Ade and spraynpray, I agree. My guess is a tolerance error at some point in manufacturing, possibly designed in accidentally and not picked up by the simulation tests. I suspect Nikon was originally thinking it would be like the garbage a D4 throws all over the sensor early on, but stops after 20,000 clicks. The problem of course is that many D600 folks may not shoot 20,000 images in several years. And D600 folks may be uncomfortable cleaning the sensor. Thus, many factors seem to be involved in the demise of the D600 and introduction of the D610, the root mean cause being the original flaw.

donaldejose

Sounds very plausible. If it is a design flaw in the shutter mechanism such that it is producing the "dust" then Nikon needs to admit that fact and replace all shutters in all D600s. That could be expensive and I would see why Nikon would not want to do it but they absolutely should. But if all shutters are designed wrong why do some D600s not have a dust issue? Perhaps about 60% of the shutters are out of tolerance as per the results of the NR poll? I do hope a tear down of a D610 and an examination of the two shutters will reveal the differences between them.

smadman

Am I the only one who thinks it's a more than a little odd that Ken Rockwell has posted a "review" of a camera he's never even *seen*, much less taken out for a test? As far as I can tell, his writeup is based entirely on the specification sheet. I hope this isn't the way he's written his other reviews.

PB_PM

I wouldn't be surprised...

donaldejose

It isn't. Ken just gets the specs out ASAP and writes all the things he thinks will be the same which is about 98%. He orders a body as soon as it is available and will update his review with performance evaluations as soon as he receives his body. You will see the same thing happen with the D5300. A very bare bones review with some photos of the body will appear withing days of its release but it you look carefully the performance evaluation will be lacking until he actually receives a body at which time he adds it.

PB_PM

Yup, for KR it's all about getting the right keywords logged into search engines, to keep his "reviews" at the top.

donaldejose

The more page views the more money advertisers pay just like the greater the circulation of a newspaper or magazine the more they can charge for advertizing.

Photobug

Donaldejose said:
It isn't. Ken just gets the specs out ASAP and writes all the things he thinks will be the same which is about 98%. He orders a body as soon as it is available and will update his review with performance evaluations as soon as he receives his body. You will see the same thing happen with the D5300. A very bare bones review with some photos of the body will appear withing days of its release but it you look carefully the performance evaluation will be lacking until he actually receives a body at which time he adds it.

Your spot on with your comments. KR write the released specs into his format and makes an initial assessment on what will be new. After getting the camera he updates the tech data turning it into a review of the camera. Smadman is not the first to believe this is a full review. Been reading his site for years and that is his format. Others have made the same comment on this forum.

The sad thing is that I have twice pointed out errors or miss information and he refuses to correct them. Although he said there was nothing wrong with his review I see he did change the wording on the D610 but still won't acknowledge that the shutter mechanism is new.

After this last exchange I decided to only use his web site to get technical info.

donaldejose

Well, we don't know for sure the D610 shutter mechanism is really much different, if at all. Sure Nikon says it is but let's see a teardown. After all, Nikon has not admitted there is any defect in the old shutter have they? Nikon has been designing shutters for a long time and they know how to do it. Perhaps a batch were "out of spec" and that caused the dust issue. All Nikon would then have to do to solve the dust issue would be to make sure the exact same shutter was "in spec" before it was installed into the D610. I want to see a tear down and some photos of the two shutters before I believe they are two entirely different shutters. Not saying they are not: just don't trust Nikon on this issue due to their behavior. Ken may be waiting for independent confirmation also before he writes that the D610 actually does have a new shutter.

Let's assume for a moment that the D610 shutter really isn't new: just one confirmed to be "in spec" before being installed with the slight "improvement" in fps being accomplished with software tweaks. Let's assume for a moment that MsMoto is right and some "out of spec" part of the D600 shutter was hitting something causing a shedding of particles during the first 20,000 shutter actuations but "wore in" or "wore off" after that to a "cure." If those assumptions are correct, and we have no way of knowing whether they are or not, then KR's suggestion that the best thing about the D610 is it will create "fire sale" prices on the D600 new and used becomes quite a valid point. Get one of those discounted price new or used D600s, deal with the dust issue by cleaning that sensor yourself for a while and you have the best value in FX, a much better value than buying a new D610. Of course, we don't know any of this. Will have to wait and see what happens.

catfish

Adorama lowered the price again today on a new D600 with a 24-85mm to $1899 from $1929. The body only price remained at $1679. To see these special prices you must use this link:

http://www.adorama.com/INKD600.html?emailprice=t&utm_term=Other&utm_medium=Affiliate&utm_campaign=Other&utm_source=rflaid63303

spraynpray

Yes. Normally though, one would expect a much lower constant rate of dust appearing than the D600. The D600 is kinda backwards instead of dust appearing more towards the end of shutter life (perhaps if the ultimate shutter failure isn't early and catastophic), It appears in HUGE quantites at the beginning with no promise of slowing down, just a few anecdotal reports of it healing on its own...perhaps....

Ironheart

The difference between a D610 and a D600 shutter may very well be a "-02" or "B" version if someone bothers to do a teardown, but I'll bet the only real difference is 5K-10K more shutter activations on the bench and a good cleaning prior to installation. Oh, and fire the guy with the oil can

kenadams

Does anybody else wonder why, given the spec of changes (or lack thereof) between D610 and D600, they test differently on DxO Mark? See the marks given for ISO for instance.. firmware updates?

tc88

For all practical purpose, they tested the same. If DxO gets a different copy, the numbers may change slightly. Maybe even if they test another time.

donaldejose

DxO mentioned that the difference was within the tolerance variations in their testing procedures and equipment so I would say the slight difference is due solely to slight variations of the same produce coming off the same assembly line: no real difference at all in any practical way.

Golf007sd

According to PhotographyLife: The Nikon D610 does NOT have a Dust Issue.

donaldejose

Sure, as if anyone would know now! But, I am quite sure solving the dust issue and getting that behind them was the only reason Nikon made a D610 in the first place.