D300s Successor-D400, what and when

scoobysmak

OOOOHHHHH, I love a good rumor...well as they say its just a rumor so we will see but I personally would like to see both. I posted this in the D4x thread as well just to keep the rumors going, lol.

http://dubaiphotoclub.com/post/71131102675/nikon-launching-d400-or-d4x-on-17-january-2014-in-dubai

Photobug

I still hope DX isn't dying. I don't need FX and I have no FX glass. My needs are met quite nicely by DX and so are the needs of the vast majority of shooters out there.

The alternative is to sell your DX lens and buy FF lens. Check out my lens in the signature block. All FF lens except my 17-55 F2.8 DX lens. When I make the shift to a FF DSLR I will sell the 17-55 for a 24-70 2.8 or 24-120mm F4.

My assessment is that the DX body will survive for the entry and mid level DSLR's and the Pro level DSLR's will have the FF sensors. Once the FF DSLR's fall to the $1200 price point the D7100/D7200 will no longer be made and the advanced amateur and Pro's will move to the full frame sensor entry level body for their primary or backup. Is that 2 years or 4 years away, hard to say. So that is my assessment.

snakebunk

@scoobysmak: Sounds like a super fast brand new D400 to me! (I guess it could also be a D3300...)

WestEndBoy

They will still be able to use DX glass on FX with quality just as good as they are used to and will even include the reach. I don't think anybody will have anything to be ticked off at when they think about it. It will be like dual DX/FX camera that morphs from a DX to an FX as the FX glass replaces the DX.

The 24 MP DX cameras have the highest pixel density (/reach) in the Nikon DSLR lineup. Not even the D800 comes close. To say that the reach is included if you use a DX lense on an FX camera is just too crazy.

Hmmm...... the question that I would ask here is "Is there a DX lens that would benefit from an increase from (say) 16 megapixels to 24 megapixels?" or "Is there an FX lens that would benefit from an increase in 36 megapixels to 50 megapixels?" While not precise, that range in FX in the "cropped zone" will be similar to the DX range.

I suspect the answer is no for the DX lenses. Zooms can't compete on this measure and they only have 4 primes. I am not sure how good the 2 Micros DX primes are, but I doubt it.

For FX, I suspect that the answer is yes for a small number of primes lenses (eg. 85 1.4G or 1.8G) and then only at apertures of 2.8 to 4.0 or wider, as the smaller apertures will not resolve due to diffraction.

So Snakebunk, I think you have a point, though I think "too crazy" may be a bit extreme. However, after another generation of megapixel inflation, I don't think the point will be valid anymore, as it is probably already pointless to increase the megapixels on the DX past 24 and increasing the megapixels on FX may be pointless past 50 or 60, even with the best glass at the widest aperturs. Nikon will need to make significant improvements in the glass to exploit more megapixels. But to what end? Diffraction is not something an engineer can work around and I am sure that lens design and production increases really quickly as you approach a diffraction limited lens. Think Leica and Zeiss and how costly they are.

rbrylawski

I still hope DX isn't dying. I don't need FX and I have no FX glass. My needs are met quite nicely by DX and so are the needs of the vast majority of shooters out there.

The alternative is to sell your DX lens and buy FF lens. Check out my lens in the signature block. All FF lens except my 17-55 F2.8 DX lens. When I make the shift to a FF DSLR I will sell the 17-55 for a 24-70 2.8 or 24-120mm F4.

My assessment is that the DX body will survive for the entry and mid level DSLR's and the Pro level DSLR's will have the FF sensors. Once the FF DSLR's fall to the $1200 price point the D7100/D7200 will no longer be made and the advanced amateur and Pro's will move to the full frame sensor entry level body for their primary or backup. Is that 2 years or 4 years away, hard to say. So that is my assessment.

OK, but why will I like it better than what I have? I don't really want to sell my lenses. I don't have any plastic mount kit lenses (not that they aren't decent glass for the money). I have (all Nikkor) the 35mm AF-S DX f1.8, the Macro 40mm f2.8 and the 18-200 VRII to cover most everything else I need for my D7100. I may add a wide angle at some point, but again I ask, what will selling these lenses and going full frame do to make me a happier picture taker? The only thing I can imagine is it will make Nikon happier as I'll have to spend gobs of money to get pictures that are not likely any better than what I can take right now.

That's my .02 worth and I'm sticking with it........for the time being.

Msmoto

I guess we are still talking about a possible D400, huh?

scoobysmak

I guess we are still talking about a possible D400, huh?

I had to stir the pot.....

WestEndBoy

OK, but why will I like it better than what I have? I don't really want to sell my lenses. I don't have any plastic mount kit lenses (not that they aren't decent glass for the money). I have (all Nikkor) the 35mm AF-S DX f1.8, the Macro 40mm f2.8 and the 18-200 VRII to cover most everything else I need for my D7100. I may add a wide angle at some point, but again I ask, what will selling these lenses and going full frame do to make me a happier picture taker? The only thing I can imagine is it will make Nikon happier as I'll have to spend gobs of money to get pictures that are not likely any better than what I can take right now.

That's my .02 worth and I'm sticking with it........for the time being.

But if you upgraded to an FX camera, you would not need to sell your DX lenses. Just set the camera to auto crop to DX if you put a DX lens on. You will get the exact same picture as you would with a DX camera and be able to fully utilize your FX glass, all seamlessly.

I know that FX is expensive now, but the price will come down. I am of the opinion that in 10 years you will be able to buy an FX camera for $500. By the time you want or need to updgrade your D7100, the $1,000 Nikon offering will be FX.

rbrylawski

OK, but why will I like it better than what I have? I don't really want to sell my lenses. I don't have any plastic mount kit lenses (not that they aren't decent glass for the money). I have (all Nikkor) the 35mm AF-S DX f1.8, the Macro 40mm f2.8 and the 18-200 VRII to cover most everything else I need for my D7100. I may add a wide angle at some point, but again I ask, what will selling these lenses and going full frame do to make me a happier picture taker? The only thing I can imagine is it will make Nikon happier as I'll have to spend gobs of money to get pictures that are not likely any better than what I can take right now.

That's my .02 worth and I'm sticking with it........for the time being.

But if you upgraded to an FX camera, you would not need to sell your DX lenses. Just set the camera to auto crop to DX if you put a DX lens on. You will get the exact same picture as you would with a DX camera and be able to fully utilize your FX glass, all seamlessly.

I know that FX is expensive now, but the price will come down. I am of the opinion that in 10 years you will be able to buy an FX camera for $500. By the time you want or need to updgrade your D7100, the $1,000 Nikon offering will be FX.

OK, but sort of defeats the purpose of FF if I'm going to primarily use it in DX mode, don't you think? I guess my question is more about why so many have come to some magical conclusion that FF is SO MUCH better than DX? Is it really? If you take a great shot with a DX camera and compare it to a shot from a FF camera, would anyone really be able to say "oh wow, that FF shot is so much better?" And if you say yes, I'm going to bet you drank the "cool aide" somewhere along the path.........

WestEndBoy

OK, but sort of defeats the purpose of FF if I'm going to primarily use it in DX mode, don't you think? I guess my question is more about why so many have come to some magical conclusion that FF is SO MUCH better than DX? Is it really? If you take a great shot with a DX camera and compare it to a shot from a FF camera, would anyone really be able to say "oh wow, that FF shot is so much better?" And if you say yes, I'm going to bet you drank the "cool aide" somewhere along the path.........



If you are going to stick with DX mode, then stick with DX cameras. However, eventually the market will disappear because you will be able to buy FX for the price of a D3XXX. It is not a question of "if", but "when". However, I admit that "when" might be 10 years in the future (some on this forum will say "never" or "15" years). At that point in time, my previous point will hold. So I am not suggesting what you should do, merely what you will have to do eventually.

No one will say "nice shot, if it was only an FX camera". However, if you take a shot with a DX and then the same shot with an FX, under "certain" circumstances, someone might say that the FX is better. Those circumstances will be low light, high contrast, certain situations where every megapixel counts, certain situations where the FX lens makes a difference compared to the DX lens, etc.

I shoot both DX and FX as you can see below, albeit the DX is only at 28mm (Coolpix A). I can tell you that my Coolpix A takes amazing photoes, but if I want to ensure I have the best image quality, I take my FX. However, a more fair comparision would be someone with a D7XXX AND an FX camera. Any of you guys want to comment?

rbrylawski

I guess "when" i have to go FF, I will, but if we are talking several years off, I'll be ready for a new system anyway. That said, what will the camera look like in 10 years? While FF sensors have larger pixels, one might wonder if they will be able to figure out how to make smaller pixels work just as well on a smaller sensor and we'll all be dealing with a completely new system by then. If one could take an outstanding picture, one rivaling what a D4 is capable of producing, from something the size of an iPhone, that wouldn't be so awful.

WestEndBoy

The "system" is the Nikon F mount, which both DX and FX uses. This ensures that the lens are all interchangeable with all the cameras.

The sensors etc. are just components of the system. Even mirrorless cameras can be compatible with the system, though the current Nikon 1 is not and is its own system (the days of which are numbered in my opinion). There is nothing stopping Nikon from producing mirrorless DX or FX cameras that are compatible with the current system.

Many are predicting the demise of the DSLR. While I doubt that, I might be wrong and I actually don't care. If something better than a DSLR comes along, then great. However, I still want my system centred on the the "F-mount" so I can keep using my lens, which cost about double what my cameras cost me and that ratio will continue to increase.

So I would not worry rbrylawski, keep using the current system that you are invested in, the "F-mount" and keep taking great pictures. Don't fret about DX or FX. The time will come when it is time to make that switch, there will be no debate anymore, and you will still be able to use your DX lenses and they will continue to perform well. There will be no need to invest in a new system. It will be a gradual shift.

rbrylawski

Thanks........

WestEndBoy

I guess "when" i have to go FF, I will, but if we are talking several years off, I'll be ready for a new system anyway. That said, what will the camera look like in 10 years? While FF sensors have larger pixels, one might wonder if they will be able to figure out how to make smaller pixels work just as well on a smaller sensor and we'll all be dealing with a completely new system by then. If one could take an outstanding picture, one rivaling what a D4 is capable of producing, from something the size of an iPhone, that wouldn't be so awful.

I think that they will figure out many things like making smaller pixels that perform at a higher level. They will also make better lenses that perform at a higher level. However, the big improvements moving forward in my view, will be lower prices. The 24 megapixel D7100 and D5300 and 36 megapixel D800 are already approaching the limits of what DX and FX format lenses can resolve. With continues improvements in sensors and lens, my guess is that double the megapixels is about as far as the current DX/FX format can go. Diffraction is a brick wall that cannot be innovated past.

Then we are back to the SLR days. The sensors were not supplied by the camera companies, but the film companies and you could load whatever 35mm film you wanted into whatever 35mm camera you wanted. I think that those days would be instructive to study to see what tomorrow is going to look like. Sensors will max out and be $200 each for full frame regardless of resolution or dynamic range. Innovation will then return to the cameras and lens, and Nikon and Canon did very well in the last half of the 20th century when the camera business looked like that.

I predict that the golden days of photography are ahead of us, not behind us. You will see a multitude of formats ranging in size from DX to FX to MX (medium format) to LX (large format). I can only dream what innovations will occur in focusing. I made an earlier joke about the Aegis AF system. I was semi-serious. Perhaps future auto-focus systems will be radar based? Where will HDR take us? What new materials will impact lens design and in what way? Imagine "liquid glass" lens that can change shape. Zooms would be smaller and might finally match primes.

Exciting days ahead......

rbrylawski

I'm looking forward to what the future holds........

Ade

The F-mount is a very old mechanical mount with many 'flaws' when examined from a modern perspective.

E.g., the F-mount's 44mm throat-diameter is barely adequate for a 35mm sensor, requiring compromises in lens design, especially in the digital world. Conversely, the 46.5mm flange-focal distance to accommodate the mirror is too long, requiring retrofocus lenses even for mild wide-angle lenses. The mechanical aperture lever creates lots of problems in the field (bent levers, stuck aperture blades, random FEE errors, etc.) The electrical contacts are also far from ideal, both physically and from a data signaling perspective. The 'bayonet' design introduce wear and tear on the mount contacts. And there's also too much tolerance "slop" in the mount itself.

At some point, these limitations will hold Nikon back while other manufacturers (like Sony) can forge ahead with making new modern lenses on modern mounts.

If Nikon will ever make a mirrorless DX or FX (or MX), I hope they come up with a new modern mount and support legacy F-mount only through an adapter.

New mount wish list:

- Full electronic mount w/ high speed data bus between camera body and lens
- Large mount-diameter and short flange-focal distance to enable next gen lenses
- Fully electronic, step-less (continuously variable) aperture
- Electronic support for power zoom
- Electronic support for tilt & shift
- Breech-lock instead of bayonet design
- Tight depth-of-focus tolerance
- High precision, high accuracy AF (enabled by high speed bus)
- Advanced Vibration Reduction (enabled by high speed bus)
- Advanced lens calibration / correction data (enabled by high speed bus)
- Lens firmware updates direct from (internet-connected) camera (no dock required)

WestEndBoy

OK, I will bite. For each of your points, which manufacturer is doing it with which of their mounts?

spraynpray

This entire page should be on 'too lazy to start a new thread' !

WestEndBoy

Guilty as charged......

Msmoto

@Ade

Your comment is IMO right on. And, who knows whether Nikon is thinking exactly the same way. The breech lock may not make it due to handling issues, but would make the attachment more secure and the contacts more easily maintained.

As to all of this being related to the D400, I guess we are all so bored by the lack of ticklers from Nikon we will talk about anything.

snakebunk

What about the Nikon 1 mount, could it be used on DX cameras?

heartyfisher

What about the Nikon 1 mount, could it be used on DX cameras?

I posted in my Nikon1 thread that I found that the rear elements of all my dx lenses can fit in the nikon1 mount. so yes I would say that the nikon1 mount could be used for DX mirrorless system. ie the same lenses could be use on both the Nikon1 and the yet unnamed Mirrorless DX system

Man I disagree with so many assertions made recently on this thread .. sigh.. .. i will need to gather my strength for a full blown rebuttal soon !! ;-)

snakebunk

What about the Nikon 1 mount, could it be used on DX cameras?

I posted in my Nikon1 thread that I found that the rear elements of all my dx lenses can fit in the nikon1 mount. so yes I would say that the nikon1 mount could be used for DX mirrorless system. ie the same lenses could be use on both the Nikon1 and the yet unnamed Mirrorless DX system

Man I disagree with so many assertions made recently on this thread .. sigh.. .. i will need to gather my strength for a full blown rebuttal soon !! ;-)

That would be another way for Nikon to go. I've never been interested in DX lenses since you cannot use them on FX cameras (if you want to use the full sensor). But Nikon 1 DX lenses that you can use on both a new DX mirrorless system and with a crop factor on current Nikon 1 cameras, that is kind of interesting. Should we name the new system DX1?

About the disagreements I wouldn't care to much. I have a feeling that Nikon pays people to write about the greatness of FX on this thread. Proof #1 being that nobody writes about the greatness of DX and the end of FX on the D4X thread

rbrylawski

Keeping the guessing going, this was in my Photography Bay Newsletter this morning:

http://www.photographybay.com/2013/12/26/nikon-d4x-andor-d400-coming-in-january-2014/?awt_l=K.yJY&awt_m=IwE6JoOSTf62xu

WestEndBoy

What about the Nikon 1 mount, could it be used on DX cameras?

Man I disagree with so many assertions made recently on this thread .. sigh.. .. i will need to gather my strength for a full blown rebuttal soon !! ;-)

I am sure that I am the source of many of those assertions. I am looking forward to your full blown rebuttal. I am sure that it will be a learning opportunity!