NIKON...MIRROR LESS NOW WITH FIRMWARE UPDATE

donaldejose

"The Z7 and Z6 are D750 and D610 equivalents." I think that is correct except to reword it. "The Z7 and Z6 should be thought of as updated mirrorless bodies occupying the same slots in Nikon's lineup as the D750 and D610 did." The Z8 will be the mirrorless body occupying the same slot at the DSRL D850 and it will probably have a sensor in the range of 100 mp when it comes out. If WEF and I are correct about this we will get a slightly different larger body on the Z8 which may have room for two card slots. Remember the D7xx series is the lighter body and the D8xx series is the heavier body with "pro" controls. I do hope we also get a 100 mp sensor in a D860 body. People are wrong to think the Z7 is Nikon's mirrorless D850 because the sensor has the same megapixels and the price is about the same. By the way, the prices of the Z bodies and S lenses are too high.

mhedges

@Pistnbroke yeah I know of voltage doublers. Still not sure USB has enough power for operating but I don’t care to discuss it more. All reports from people who have gotten to use the camera is that the battery life is reasonable.

What I’m more worried about is the so-so AF performance and the very mixed reviews on the 24-70 kit lens. Maybe AF can be tweaked with software but the lens is probably in its final state.

This situation reminds me a bit of the Nintendo Switch launch. They have a great product that got a lot of bad press because of issues that should have been found and corrected in pre-launch testing. It still did very well but I don’t know why these companies keep making these unforced errors. Maybe it’s something to do with the very insular and siloed culture prevalent in Japanese companies.

PB_PM

WestEndFoto said:

The Z7 and Z6 are D750 and D610 equivalents.

The price points, resolution and other specs suggest otherwise, that they are really meant to be D750 and D850 equivalents.

If anything the D7500 release, and now the Z6/7 cameras, suggest a new trend from Nikon, moving back to the time when only the top end sports/media camera D1/2/3/4/5 (+D500) series or what will likely be the Z8/9 have dual card slots. What will also be interesting to see is what Nikon does with DX, and whether they will even try, since they want to be seen as a luxury camera brand now,

Andrewz

@mhedges I wouldn't worry to much about the poor reviews of the 24-70 f/4 lens, it will likely be comparable to the Sony 24-70 f/4 kit lens. This lens is for people who are new to the Nikon system and makes the Z's competitive with the Sony A7's. If/when I'll get a body and adaptor and wait for the f/2.8 lenses to arrive.

I will probably wait for the Z6 and see how the image quality compares to the D750 before I jump but it should be better.

I have 2 friends who sold all their Nikon gear and got A9's and A7R III's. I had contemplated the A7 III but the image quality really isn't any better then the D750. So I wait and see.

WestEndFoto

PB_PM said:

WestEndFoto said:

The Z7 and Z6 are D750 and D610 equivalents.

The price points, resolution and other specs suggest otherwise, that they are really meant to be D750 and D850 equivalents.

If anything the D7500 release, and now the Z6/7 cameras, suggest a new trend from Nikon, moving back to the time when only the top end sports/media camera D1/2/3/4/5 (+D500) series or what will likely be the Z8/9 have dual card slots. What will also be interesting to see is what Nikon does with DX, and whether they will even try, since they want to be seen as a luxury camera brand now,

Yeah, the price points and sensors suggest D850 and D750 equivalents, but I think those two factors are superficial. In time all sensors will be 72mp and Nikon will always charge as much as the traffic will bear. When I look at the ergonomics and other "non-headline" characteristics, I see D750 and D610 equivalents.


If the Z7 was truly a D850 equivalent, I would be considering buying one subject to how good a job they did with the adapter. I suspect that a Z8 will be the true D850 / D860 equivalent.

WestEndFoto

Andrewz said:

@mhedges I wouldn't worry to much about the poor reviews of the 24-70 f/4 lens, it will likely be comparable to the Sony 24-70 f/4 kit lens. This lens is for people who are new to the Nikon system and makes the Z's competitive with the Sony A7's. If/when I'll get a body and adaptor and wait for the f/2.8 lenses to arrive.

I will probably wait for the Z6 and see how the image quality compares to the D750 before I jump but it should be better.

I have 2 friends who sold all their Nikon gear and got A9's and A7R III's. I had contemplated the A7 III but the image quality really isn't any better then the D750. So I wait and see.

I think that there is truth to this. The 24-70 2.8E and 70-200 2.8E are arguably the best in their class. The Sony 24-70 2.8 is only on par with the 24-70 2.8G (I know that some people argue over this because of centre sharpness, but I never complain about centre sharpness anywhere on the frame of mine and if I had the G or the Sony, I might have cause to complain about mid and edge frame sharpness). But further, I suspect that the amplitude of the complaint about sharpness on lenses like these is inversely correlated to the quality of said photographer's portfolio.

mhedges

Looking at the brochure I would need to buy the WR-R10/WR-T10 set for remote shutter operation. That's really annoying. What's wrong with the IR remote? Or at least build the receiver into the camera. I guess the higher end Nikon's have always been that way but I can't understand why.

Hiker

WestEndFoto said:

Hiker said:

WestEndFoto said:

Hiker said:

tc88 said:

Hiker said:

Some are getting upwards of 3000 + shots on the A7iii and still have 20% battery left.

So now, all of a sudden, it's ok for a mirrorless camera to have poor battery life, and it's ok now to add a battery grip to extend battery life.

First, not everyone is ok for a mirrorless to have poor battery life, maybe most people are not ok if they are used to battery life on a DSLR.

Second, for mirrorless, it's not the # of shots that consumes the bulk of battery, it's the duration that you keep it on, point at things and the EVF and AF keeps on working that consume the battery. Sure, if you keep your finger on the A7 shutter continuously in an electrical shutter mode, I don't doubt you may be able to fire off 3k+ shots before it dies. That probably take you 20 minutes. But can your A7 last a whole day shooting if you use it constantly?

My comment is based on past comments from the DSLR folk who dismissed mirrorless because of poor battery life and the need to add a grip with a second battery to come close to a DSLR. I feel into that crowd. NOW it's ok for Nikon's mirrorless to have a poor battery life and the CIPA ratings are not to be trusted. THAT was my point. And adding a grip to the "small" mirrorless was not ok then but ok now...hypocrisy at it's best.

DSLR folk is plural and a big crowd. There may be some folk who dismissed mirrorless and some who think it is it is OK. Are you suggesting that these are the same people or that all "DSLR folk" are these people? Also "NOW it's ok for Nikon's mirrorless to have a poor battery life and the CIPA ratings are not to be trusted." doesn't make sense if you think about it. You have stated that either "some" or "all" people are hypocrites. Which one? Do you mind clarifying your statement. Thanks.

Well, from the responses I'm reading on the Nikon forums most are hypocritical. Feel better by that statement? All that bashing, all that knocking Sony and others for the lack of many tech that the DSLR's had and mirrorless didn't. Now it's just fine and dandy?! And now the excuses are rolling out. One card slot was always in the first new set of cameras? Wow...I guess the one card slot debacle with the D7500 was swept under the rug. Old news...until yesterday. And I'm too old for English lessons so lighten up..

But jeez, the Sony and Canon (well, maybe not the Canon as much, they are humble these days) are just as much idiots. Why don't we focus on photography and ignore the idiots. They are just noisy idiots distracting me from figuring out what gear I need next.

Well, after years of DSLR folk (yeah, I said it again) bashing mirrorless, it's Sony's turn and deservedly so. Once again, it's ok for the lackluster Z6 & 7. Nikon had ONE JOB. To equal or exceed the A7iii. And they came out short. They rushed this camera out to try to stem the flow of people flocking to Sony, which is still happening btw, and other mirrorless cameras.

donaldejose

Why did Nikon choose to go with one XQD card instead of two SD cards when they only had room for one of those two options? Perhaps because the XQD card had the same form factor as the soon to be released CFExpress card which will be even faster. SDs are just too old technology and speed for higher end bodies released today? Once CFExpress is out and people with a Z6 or Z7 will be able to upgrade through firmware to have a much faster camera we all may be talking about how brilliant Nikon was to not use double SD cards!

WestEndFoto

Hiker said:

WestEndFoto said:

Hiker said:

WestEndFoto said:

Hiker said:

tc88 said:

Hiker said:

Some are getting upwards of 3000 + shots on the A7iii and still have 20% battery left.

So now, all of a sudden, it's ok for a mirrorless camera to have poor battery life, and it's ok now to add a battery grip to extend battery life.

First, not everyone is ok for a mirrorless to have poor battery life, maybe most people are not ok if they are used to battery life on a DSLR.

Second, for mirrorless, it's not the # of shots that consumes the bulk of battery, it's the duration that you keep it on, point at things and the EVF and AF keeps on working that consume the battery. Sure, if you keep your finger on the A7 shutter continuously in an electrical shutter mode, I don't doubt you may be able to fire off 3k+ shots before it dies. That probably take you 20 minutes. But can your A7 last a whole day shooting if you use it constantly?

My comment is based on past comments from the DSLR folk who dismissed mirrorless because of poor battery life and the need to add a grip with a second battery to come close to a DSLR. I feel into that crowd. NOW it's ok for Nikon's mirrorless to have a poor battery life and the CIPA ratings are not to be trusted. THAT was my point. And adding a grip to the "small" mirrorless was not ok then but ok now...hypocrisy at it's best.

DSLR folk is plural and a big crowd. There may be some folk who dismissed mirrorless and some who think it is it is OK. Are you suggesting that these are the same people or that all "DSLR folk" are these people? Also "NOW it's ok for Nikon's mirrorless to have a poor battery life and the CIPA ratings are not to be trusted." doesn't make sense if you think about it. You have stated that either "some" or "all" people are hypocrites. Which one? Do you mind clarifying your statement. Thanks.

Well, from the responses I'm reading on the Nikon forums most are hypocritical. Feel better by that statement? All that bashing, all that knocking Sony and others for the lack of many tech that the DSLR's had and mirrorless didn't. Now it's just fine and dandy?! And now the excuses are rolling out. One card slot was always in the first new set of cameras? Wow...I guess the one card slot debacle with the D7500 was swept under the rug. Old news...until yesterday. And I'm too old for English lessons so lighten up..

But jeez, the Sony and Canon (well, maybe not the Canon as much, they are humble these days) are just as much idiots. Why don't we focus on photography and ignore the idiots. They are just noisy idiots distracting me from figuring out what gear I need next.

Well, after years of DSLR folk (yeah, I said it again) bashing mirrorless, it's Sony's turn and deservedly so. Once again, it's ok for the lackluster Z6 & 7. Nikon had ONE JOB. To equal or exceed the A7iii. And they came out short. They rushed this camera out to try to stem the flow of people flocking to Sony, which is still happening btw, and other mirrorless cameras.

Well, I suspect that most bashers on both sides would benefit from spending that time on improving their photography skills. Funny how most of them don't have portfolios worthy of mention.

And even if the Z6 and Z7 is lacklustre, or perhaps on the expensive side is a better description, Nikon shooters can see the plan and that flow will be stopped providing the adapter works. That was job one, not equaling Sony in every way. For a more balanced perspective, go to:

https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/sony-versus-nikon-mirrorles.html

spraynpray

WestEndFoto said:

Andrewz said:

@mhedges I wouldn't worry to much about the poor reviews of the 24-70 f/4 lens, it will likely be comparable to the Sony 24-70 f/4 kit lens. This lens is for people who are new to the Nikon system and makes the Z's competitive with the Sony A7's. If/when I'll get a body and adaptor and wait for the f/2.8 lenses to arrive.

I will probably wait for the Z6 and see how the image quality compares to the D750 before I jump but it should be better.

I have 2 friends who sold all their Nikon gear and got A9's and A7R III's. I had contemplated the A7 III but the image quality really isn't any better then the D750. So I wait and see.

But further, I suspect that the amplitude of the complaint about sharpness on lenses like these is inversely correlated to the quality of said photographer's portfolio.

Very true unfortunately. In the UK we say 'all the gear, no idea'.

WestEndFoto

Spraynpray, you might be interested in the new 35. Nikon is suggesting that there is zero coma right to the edge of the frame wide-open.

Symphotic

WestEndFoto said:

Spraynpray, you might be interested in the new 35. Nikon is suggesting that there is zero coma right to the edge of the frame wide-open.

The 35 f/1.4 G is not one of Nikon's better lenses wide open or at the edges: I get much better results with the Sigma, so off goes my 35 f/1.4G to help pay for my Z7 with the 35 f/1.8 "S".

WestEndFoto

The S is the lens that I am suggesting.

Andrewz

@Hiker said

"Well, after years of DSLR folk (yeah, I said it again) bashing mirrorless, it's Sony's turn and deservedly so. Once again, it's ok for the lackluster Z6 & 7. Nikon had ONE JOB. To equal or exceed the A7iii. And they came out short. They rushed this camera out to try to stem the flow of people flocking to Sony, which is still happening btw, and other mirrorless cameras."

I'm not sure how anyone can call the Z6 and Z7 "lackluster" just based on the specs? I think the only big disappointment is the lack of 2 card slots. Why don't we wait for actual production cameras with final firmware before we describe them as failures. Hey and maybe some real tests.

All in all the cameras sound great and their greatest advantage is the AF-S lens line up. Sony lens selection has gotten better but still no where as deep and broad as Nikons.

One thing I'm really excited about is having focus peeking for uses with my old manual focus lenses.

mhedges

So supposedly that 10 minute video battery life figure was a screw up on the Nikon USA website and the correct value is 85 minutes. 85 minutes to me sounds fine. But it’s hard for me to understand how a mistake like that could happen- you would think they would know battery life would be very closely scrutinized. It reeks of incompetence of the folks in charge.

As far as the kit zoom lens - yeah it’s in this weird no mans land. Confirmed amateurs like me would rather have a 24-120 F4. Pros (or people who prefer pro equipment) of course want a 24-70 2.8. I did order it because the kit discount was pretty significant and I wanted to try a native mount lens and don’t have a FF “normal” zoom. But I’m not ruling out selling it off for the AF-S 24-120 if it doesn’t wow me.

tc88

A 3x zoom is a pretty common kit lens. Canon does bundle 24-70 f/4 with 5D. So it's not that strange a choice.

tc88

donaldejose said:

Here is an idea for Nikon. Produce two versions of the Z7 and Z6: one with two SD cards and one with one XQD card.

I sincerely hope they would listen to you.

donaldejose said:

Why did Nikon choose to go with one XQD card instead of two SD cards when they only had room for one of those two options? Perhaps because the XQD card had the same form factor as the soon to be released CFExpress card which will be even faster. SDs are just too old technology and speed for higher end bodies released today? Once CFExpress is out and people with a Z6 or Z7 will be able to upgrade through firmware to have a much faster camera we all may be talking about how brilliant Nikon was to not use double SD cards!

Except Z7/Z6 are no sport cameras with the review I saw, thus the speed is not really needed, but the cards cost a bundle. Then on format wars, typically small form factor wins. Because as technology improve, you can improve the performance, but you can't downsize the form factor. So XQD even if it survives, will be niche product. That's why few manufacturers bother with it.

mhedges

Yeah I guess that’s true. It just seems weird to me since Nikon hadn’t made one before - they’ve been using a 24-120 (or DX equivalent) in their higher end kits. But you’re right that’s the standard from Canon and Sony.

tc88

WestEndFoto said:

I suspect that Nikon will iterate quite quickly with their Z cameras.

We all hope that's the case. But on the other hand, we were all hoping during the last few years, Nikon has been monitoring the landscape and doing the development, and the only reason they didn't release a mirrorless was not to cannibalize their DSLRs. Looks like that's not really the case. They set the development target on a then already existing product (A7r2) instead of some future product (A7r3) that would be there when the Z7 comes to market. They didn't appear to watch the competitive market either while Sony listened and changed from 1 slot to 2 slots on A7r3. So they were indeed behind. And mirrorless is more about electronics than optics, I'm not sure Nikon has the leading expertise in this area. Sony has been iterating in a much faster pace and it will be tough for Nikon to just keep up.

The only bright spot is the Z mount itself and I think they made a very good decision. But that's on the optics side which they do have the leading expertise. The other good decision is having two cameras with sensor being the only difference. That's good for manufacturing and inventory control.

I do have a feeling that at least Z7's price may tank quickly at some point, just like what happened to D600 when the oil issue became known. As it stands currently, it's already overpriced significantly with the issues it has. That may force them to revise quicker than usual.

tc88

Northrup's review.



I found it to be fair and honest. To sum it up in my words, forget it (for now at least).

WestEndFoto

Well tc88, I think that photography is more about optics than cameras. And Nikon and Canon are ahead on that.

I watched Northrup’s Review. The flaw, apparently also on the part of Nikon’s staff, is to think of the Z7 as a mirrorless D850, not a D750.

tc88

WestEndFoto said:

The flaw, apparently also on the part of Nikon’s staff, is to think of the Z7 as a mirrorless D850, not a D750.

Agree, if they priced Z7 at $2-2.2k instead of $3.4k, people will be more willing to overlook the issues. Sony's A7r2 right now costs $2k.

WestEndFoto

tc88 said:

WestEndFoto said:

The flaw, apparently also on the part of Nikon’s staff, is to think of the Z7 as a mirrorless D850, not a D750.

Agree, if they priced Z7 at $2-2.2k instead of $3.4k, people will be more willing to overlook the issues. Sony's A7r2 right now costs $2k.

Well, they may have over priced it, but maybe they will drop it quickly. My point is that feature and ergonomic wise, it is a D750 equivalent, not a D850.

mhedges

Well I would say the Z6 is the straight up mirrorless D750, and the Z7 is more like the mirrorless D750r. The D850 has lots of advantages over the D750 other than resolution (AF, touchscreen, controls, metering, convenience stuff, etc.). The only advantage to the Z7 is resolution, and its actually a step back in some other areas.

I think you could split the price difference ($2700 or so) and it would be justified. The current premium is just too much.