Z9 is coming

WestEndFoto

First, for full disclosure, I can really care less about video. I cynically liked the DF because it had none. However, I did order the Zfc with the 28mm lens and I plan to shoot video of my kids with that and I will learn to use NX Studio. But that is as far as I plan to take it.

I do think that it is important that Nikon have 8k on the Z9 for the marketing reasons that are spoken about above. But also, the ability to deliver that video will improve the cameras other abilities - specifically autofocus and high frame rate (if 30fps is your thing). These are real benefits for photographers, even if only an important benefit for a small portion.

Will 8k and 12k video become a thing or go the way of 3D. I don't know. But I also think that none of us do - we all have opinions. My bet (aka opinion) is that 8k and even 16k will become a thing someday - but I am speculating (see my previous comments on the fisheye VR application). My confidence is that fidelity increases to the point that people see a real benefit. I used to spend thousands of dollars on high end Canadian, English and American audio gear and lamented the quality of CDs. But CDs were very convenient and the quality was good enough. Then then we took another step backwards quality wise with MP3 players. And now I am deaf in one ear and it all just sounds like white noise - that is when I started devoting more time to photography.

So my point is that I get that most people will not appreciate the quality. What I described above is the same story as phones and entry level DSLRs. So why do I think that things might be different with 8k plus. Because while 4k is a one sided "good enough", four sided "good enough" will be 4k times 4. But who knows......I will not fret it because time will tell.

donaldejose

PB_PM: Yes, that is one of the good reason I have heard to shoot video in 8k. You can crop out segments in 4k, convert the remaining 8k to 4k and then you have a complete 4k video taken with one camera that looks like you filmed it with two cameras. I don't shoot video but can see that ability to essentially turn one 8k camera into two 4k cameras could be valued by people who do shoot video. You may even be able to shoot a scene of two people and have three results: both people, a crop of one person and a crop of the other person. All three converted to the same format. Video shooters will have to speak to this advantage.

WestEndFoto

PB_PM, you got me thinking of something. I have been told that D850 files (at lo ISO) downsampled to 20mp look better than D6 files.

The same might apply to video.

Photobug

DenverShooter said:

Anyone remember when 3D HDTV was the Next Big Thing about 10 or so years ago?

Remember all of the ads featuring people wearing 3D glasses that were the size of Welding goggles? Sony along with others came out with a slew of 3D flatscreens.

ESPN even had a dedicated 3D HDTV sports channel.

And it went nowhere. Virtually zero consumer uptake. Cost the CEO of Sony his job.

Is 8 K going to lead a stampede of 8 K flatscreen buyers to Costco or Sams club waving credit cards?

Or will this be another 3D TV debacle?

Once the price drops $1500 people will buy 8K HDTV. Don't expect it to flop like 3D HDTVs.

photobunny

8k will not flop. People already have 77 and 80 inch TV's and want bigger ones wall mounted. I have a 77 inch in my eye just now and at my viewing distance 8k would make a difference. It'll take a while, but so did 4k. Eventually you won't be able to buy a 4k TV because 8k will be required.

Just now 8k is great for making it seem like you have a multi camera setup as you can crop into so many 4k views from one source. But 8k will likely need something more than pixel to push it for the home market. 4k didn't get anyone's attention, 4k+HDR did.

PB_PM

WestEndFoto said:

PB_PM, you got me thinking of something. I have been told that D850 files (at lo ISO) downsampled to 20mp look better than D6 files.



The same might apply to video.

Indeed it does. Video is already better in general, since it is much lower resolution than stills.

WestEndFoto

photobunny said:

8k will not flop. People already have 77 and 80 inch TV's and want bigger ones wall mounted. I have a 77 inch in my eye just now and at my viewing distance 8k would make a difference. It'll take a while, but so did 4k. Eventually you won't be able to buy a 4k TV because 8k will be required.



Just now 8k is great for making it seem like you have a multi camera setup as you can crop into so many 4k views from one source. But 8k will likely need something more than pixel to push it for the home market. 4k didn't get anyone's attention, 4k+HDR did.

Past 8k the lenses will start to be limiting factors. You can only crop so much.

photobunny

WestEndFoto said:

photobunny said:

8k will not flop. People already have 77 and 80 inch TV's and want bigger ones wall mounted. I have a 77 inch in my eye just now and at my viewing distance 8k would make a difference. It'll take a while, but so did 4k. Eventually you won't be able to buy a 4k TV because 8k will be required.



Just now 8k is great for making it seem like you have a multi camera setup as you can crop into so many 4k views from one source. But 8k will likely need something more than pixel to push it for the home market. 4k didn't get anyone's attention, 4k+HDR did.

Past 8k the lenses will start to be limiting factors. You can only crop so much.

Nah the lenses are fine even on 12k sensors. Gives you room for cropping, extreme or just aspect ratio. If we were worried about cropping, we wouldn't use DX mode on things like the Z7 or wouldn't use a D500 at all.

mhedges

photobunny said:

Nah the lenses are fine even on 12k sensors. Gives you room for cropping, extreme or just aspect ratio. If we were worried about cropping, we wouldn't use DX mode on things like the Z7 or wouldn't use a D500 at all.

??? 12K is ~100MP FF resolution. How many lenses do we have that can support that? And how do we even know since there's nothing on the market over 60?

WestEndFoto

mhedges said:

photobunny said:

Nah the lenses are fine even on 12k sensors. Gives you room for cropping, extreme or just aspect ratio. If we were worried about cropping, we wouldn't use DX mode on things like the Z7 or wouldn't use a D500 at all.

??? 12K is ~100MP FF resolution. How many lenses do we have that can support that? And how do we even know since there's nothing on the market over 60?

108 for 12k DCI, and not many and perhaps none yet. It will be hard to know. My Noct at 1.8/2.0 offers an improvement over my 50 1.2 at 1.8/2.0 which offers an improvement over my 50 1.8 at 1.8/2.0. The limiting factor is definitely the Z7's 45mp sensor. How big will the sensor need to be before the lenses become the limiting factor in the 2.0-2.8 range where they are sharpest? Certainly more than 60mp but how much past that? 108mp would be wonderful. I might be able to get sharp retinas on full body shots.

This is one reason that I was always skeptical of the DX extra reach argument. Yes, if the pixel density is higher you can get more pixels on the bird - but unless you had the finest lenses in the f-mount ecosystem and likely only if you were shooting at their sharpest apertures, the lens was probably the limiting factor so it didn't really matter.

I have never had an image negatively critiqued in my photography courses because it wasn't sharp enough - even my 58 1.4G when I shot it wide open which people loved to complain about.

But over the next few years we are going to find out..............

DaveyJ

The Z fc is a nice little camera and far better than the Nikon Df. The DX Z cameras are great in that they are less expensive, smaller, better suited to travel, and do have more "reach"than the FX cameras with the same lens. I know PROS who are still using D500 and are buying MORE D500s for the next year. They buy them as the action is brought in closer and they are sharp and tough and FAST to use.

I also own a Z 6 II but the lens on it always now is the 24-70 F4 S lens. Also now if a camera does not have very good video I am NOT going to buy it. Right now Nikon is behind the 8 ball in not having Z telephotos!

I am after the 200-600 when that comes out. The 50-250 Z DX lens I use so much it is on my Z50 all of the time. The lens we NEED in Z DX is the 200-500 F 5.6. And hopefully lighter and more hand holdable than the 200-500!

rmp

I wish for a 70-200/f4 as good as the 24-70/f4.

WestEndFoto

I wish for a 135 1.4S and a 200 1.8S.

rmp

Can we hurry it up a little. I might get stuck watching the news.

PB_PM

Think December, go watch some news.

photobunny

I am thinking March. But the money is in the bank waiting if it comes sooner.

WestEndFoto

I think it will be out before the end of the year. I will buy it next year.

photobunny

So the R3 is getting a full announcement next week, I wonder if Canon showing their hand will push Nikon to release soon or hold off a bit if it doesn't best the R3.

photobunny

Well Canon showed their hand with the best full frame mirrorless on the market just now. I think the Z9 can best it in quite a few areas based on what we know so far, firstly being the mechanical shutter speed and then having hopefully having the tilt screen being flat on instead of slightly forward. Though the higher megapixels might be great for wildlife shooters we have sports and motorsports shooters all reaffirming that 30MB files are more desirable than 100MB files.


Regardless we have the Z9 competition showing it’s hand, I am really looking forward to seeing what Nikon deliver.

Photobug

My gut tells me that the Z9 is either going to save Nikon or they will stop making cameras within 4 years.

Sorry to be so negative but it just feels like this is a turning point for Nikon. I looked at that new Canon today and WOW. Very nicely done on paper.

PB_PM

Canon has done a good job of keeping the cameras targeted at the intended markets that for sure. There is still room for an R1 in theory too.

WestEndFoto

The main reason that Canon went with the lower resolution sensor is that a dual pixel 24mp sensor requires the same bandwidth as a regular 48mp sensor. This is the primary disadvantage of the dual pixel design.

Not sure this is something to celebrate for Canon. I think that Nikon has made the right choices with the Z9.

photobunny

@WestEndFoto it is very unlikely that dual pixel af had anything to do with this. They were making a body above the R5 and below the 1Dx3. Canon could have easily made it a dual processor model and dual CF Express. But no, Canon went for a very safe body that pleases the sports and wildlife shooters. The Z9 looks like a powerhouse, but having it past 20MP is a concern for sports shooters and journalists that don’t want 100MB files(and they’ll still shoot in medium JPG anyway).

The R3 stands just now as the best full frame mirrorless you can buy and it is unrivalled. The Nikon Z9 would do very well to match it and exceptionally well fo surpass it. If the Z9 matches the R3 performance then we are in for a real treat.

mhedges

The R3 seems like a nice camera absolutely but I don't see anything there that Nikon or Sony should really be scared of. If it's really the "best" is subjective, I think. Its the only option with a built in grip. Other than that the A1 is very competitive with it, and of course a better option for folks who want resolution.

I don't understand why R3 isn't dual CFE. Mismatched slots on a $6000 camera seems not good to me. What is the point of a SD slot on a "speed" camera?

Not so sure that dual pixel isn't causing them some problems. Per the Fro preview I watched last night the rolling shutter, while quite good, wasn't as good as the A1. Only explanation I can think of for that is the dual pixel architecture. A 24 mp stacked sensor shouldn't be slower than a 50 mp stacked sensor.

photobunny

It’s Canons first stacked sensor so I can’t expect it perfect. The Sony A1 is not in the same league as the gripped and weather sealed bodies from Nikon and Canon.

Canon said the SD slot was for the case where you are abroad and can only find a SD card. Many responded that no, we take our own cards with us. I very much suspect the PCIe lanes are used elsewhere for say the new accessory shoe, WiFi, GPS, and Ethernet.