NIKON...MIRROR LESS NOW WITH FIRMWARE UPDATE

Searcy

spraynpray said:

People will always find a way to a/d guns and cameras!

My wife keeps telling me I need to stop telling models "I'd like to shoot you sometime." I guess it sounds strange to eavesdroppers.

mhedges

tc88 said:

They can fuse the adapter with the camera and sell it to die hard F-mount fans as an F-mount mirrorless. But I would rather have it separately.

I was hoping that the adapter will come bundled with the camera initially to speed the adoption. But the phrase "being developed" could mean it may not even be available at the initial release since it can take a while for it to go from development to production to sale. That could mean it will likely be sold separately and can be expensive with the way Nikon typically prices these things.

Yeah that was my hope too. I at least figured it would be released at the same time as the camera. To me it would be a major mistake to release the camera body without an F mount adapter available.

spraynpray

Of all the R&D that goes into a completely new camera, you would think that a lens adaptor would be the simple part so maybe we are fretting unnecessarily.

mhedges

I would say it depends. If it's just an extension tube sure. But it sounds more complicated than that. I'm wondering if they don't place the AF focus motor for screw drive lenses in the adapter. That would make it much more complicated, but it's probably the only way to keep AF with those lenses.

HankB

mhedges said:

I would say it depends. If it's just an extension tube sure. But it sounds more complicated than that. I'm wondering if they don't place the AF focus motor for screw drive lenses in the adapter. That would make it much more complicated, but it's probably the only way to keep AF with those lenses.

It is patently obvious that we must have an adapter that will operate the mechanical diaphragms of the non-E lenses. Without it, Nikon loses a vast portion of the hold it may have over Nikon glass owners wishing to go mirrorless.

But I have no feel for how important it is to also support screw drive lenses. And if screw drive support is important, it would then seem reasonable that Nikon develop two different adapters, as the screw drive model would have to be more complex and expensive, and unneeded by some — maybe most — customers.

NSXTypeR

spraynpray said:

Not a great analogy, more like the evolution of the Glock type weapons with a safety on the trigger. Unless you are inept and stupid, you don't touch the trigger of a gun until it is pointing pretty much in the direction of the target so why give yourself another unnecessary time-consuming action like contorting for a through bar safety or changing your grip for a thumb safety?

As for the transportation thing where you may accidentally repeatedly 'bump' your shutter button, you mean to tell me that your protection for your camera is so poor that you allow it to 'bump' against other things? Ay-Caramba. Still, to go back to the gun analogy, you do read about people with similar problems exterminating themselves so it is only a matter of time until no off switch works - it's Darwinian. LOL!

To be clear, I am not saying the new camera doesn't have or need an off switch, just allowing my mind to wander around whether we actually need one at all.

Understood haha. I'm thinking worst case scenario.

spraynpray

HankB: Yes, two adaptors. I don't use lenses without focus motors because they are too slow.

mhedges

HankB said:

mhedges said:

I would say it depends. If it's just an extension tube sure. But it sounds more complicated than that. I'm wondering if they don't place the AF focus motor for screw drive lenses in the adapter. That would make it much more complicated, but it's probably the only way to keep AF with those lenses.

It is patently obvious that we must have an adapter that will operate the mechanical diaphragms of the non-E lenses. Without it, Nikon loses a vast portion of the hold it may have over Nikon glass owners wishing to go mirrorless.

But I have no feel for how important it is to also support screw drive lenses. And if screw drive support is important, it would then seem reasonable that Nikon develop two different adapters, as the screw drive model would have to be more complex and expensive, and unneeded by some — maybe most — customers.

spraynpray said:

HankB: Yes, two adaptors. I don't use lenses without focus motors because they are too slow.

I remember earlier in this thread there were people who really wanted support for screw drive. I sold all my screw drive lenses so it's not important to me.

If they do decide to support screw drive (which I expect they will, due to how many lenses are out there and how many are still in the product line today) two adapters would be what I would want also. And I totally forgot about the need to activate the diaphrams. I agree that is 100% necessary.

HankB

Just to clarify my question on whether it is "important" to support screw drive, I mean does screw drive enabled adapter development make business sense to Nikon corporate? I wonder if the market for Nikon mirrorless, specifically from customers who are still nursing screw drive, is perceived by Nikon marketing people as all that significant.

In other words, how many customers would even bother to buy an expensive "latest and greatest" high speed body, just to weigh it down with the legacy of Nikon's trial and error iterations of adapting auto-focus to its 1950s F mount?
(I don't mean to offend anyone; this is just my engineering brain's analysis of Nikon's struggle with supporting backward compatibility for an old, pre-electronics era mount while Canon had completely redesigned, I think twice).

spraynpray

I think there are members here who would be very upset if they couldn't use their old lenses on the new bodies and given Nikon's long term efforts to keep some compatibility, I am pretty sure there will be support in terms of a Z to F adaptor. I just hope users of the latest lenses don't have to pay for something they don't want.

sport

I would expect the adapter is a separate purchase. Nikon isn't known to give away anything for free.

There is going to be pain during the transition to a new mount. Canon knows this as well as any company. Users expecting to use any f mount lens and get the same performance as older cameras gave are setting themselves up for disappointment. I would not be disappointed if only AF-S we're supported for autofocus.

From a design standpoint moving to a new mount means that they can address old issues and leave paths for future tech. What is going to be really important with the new camera is seeing what the new lens tech is coming as well.

snakebunk

I think bundling adapters is a waste since not everybody will want one. It is better to buy what you need than what you don't. But I am not worried that Nikon won't deliver on adapters.

I have just started to get sensor spots on my D810, it seems to start happening after around 50 k exposures (it was the same on my D800), and then I realized that this might be better with mirrorless cameras since there is no mirror mechanism that needs oil. So, perhaps one more advantage with mirrorless.

mhedges

I gotta think most people would at least have need of an adapter for AF-S lenses, since there will be so few native mount lenses at first. But I agree it's unlikely they will include it. I just hope it's available at launch.

HankB

I agree that Nikon should not load down camera cost or price with adapters that only some will need. But Nikon certainly should be pricing adapters somewhere around cost. Not profiteering on adapters would be perceived by (most) customers as fair.

Classic case of  enlightened self-interest   vs.  short-sighted greed.

And there is precedent for this — as the Cretaceous ended and more evolved reptiles were moving to in camera metering, Nikon would make necessary modification to customer owned lenses at a very modest price. And that was with the added complexity of receiving, shipping and handling customer owned goods.

rmp

I keep seeing sensor size charts that indicate the new Nikon mirrorless sensor/mount size could support a medium format sensor. Is that correct. Is it a possibility?

PB_PM

HankB said:

I agree that Nikon should not load down camera cost or price with adapters that only some will need. But Nikon certainly should be pricing adapters somewhere around cost. Not profiteering on adapters would be perceived by (most) customers as fair.

The FT-1 adapter for using F-mount glass on Nikon 1 bodies was $250 USD on release, so I’d expect any adaptor for the new cameras to be $250-300 USD. Profiteering? Most likely, although Nikon might be wise to make it a loss leader this time around.

Andrewz

@donaldejose I think your right about the 2 bodies being mirrorless one 25MP and the other 45MP (or there abouts). I disagree with the pro and amateur button/dial configuration, it simply makes no design sense. If you're making a brand new camera and anticipate one as a lower MP, High ISO camera and the other a High MP camera save time and money and put them in the same chassis. We all know Nikon doesn't like to copy other manufactures but Sony has shown how effective this is with the A7/R/S series. I expect and hope for 2 bodies i.e. A7III/A7RIII.

On/Off switch. There will be an on/off, no doubt and you want it. Mirrorless cameras are battery hogs, no way around it they just are. Yes I can leave my D750 on all day long and the battery is fine. Try that with most mirrorless and you have a dead battery. The problem is in the basic function of an mirrorless camera, you are alway powering the sensor and either the EVF or LCD. When you using your DSLR your not alway powering the sensor or an LCD screen. I recommend a different shooting style, with my D750 I turn it on and leave it on. With my Fuji X-Pro II as I bring it to my eye I'm turning it on, when it goes back down to my wist and hangs on the camera strap it's off. Look at the new Sony batteries, they needed bigger batteries and had to sacrifice size to get better battery life, all mirrorless are power hogs....

F-mount adapter. I hope that the adapter is a simple spacer that allows for the AF-S lenses to communicate with the camera body. The D5 focusing system is superb, now I don't know enough to know if that could be adapted to a mirrorless system but if it could all the better. Then your adaptor is just a hollow metal tube with electrical connections and if Nikon charges and arm and leg for it, any number of after market manufactures will make it cheaper. I suggest dropping the D lens support and expect that Nikon will. Non-G AF-S lenses should be about to function in aperture priority, same as all older Manual focus lenses. I do hope for a bundle. Nikon has been giving away their over price Battery grips lately in different promotions, so why not a free F-mount adaptor.

mhedges

Andrewz said:

F-mount adapter. I hope that the adapter is a simple spacer that allows for the AF-S lenses to communicate with the camera body. The D5 focusing system is superb, now I don't know enough to know if that could be adapted to a mirrorless system but if it could all the better. Then your adaptor is just a hollow metal tube with electrical connections and if Nikon charges and arm and leg for it, any number of after market manufactures will make it cheaper. I suggest dropping the D lens support and expect that Nikon will. Non-G AF-S lenses should be about to function in aperture priority, same as all older Manual focus lenses. I do hope for a bundle. Nikon has been giving away their over price Battery grips lately in different promotions, so why not a free F-mount adaptor.

That's what I was thinking too but then it was pointed out that it will at least need a mechanical diagram activator, since only the "E" series lenses have electronic diaphrams, and there aren't that many of those. So that's a complication.

Andrewz

@mhedges Well, yes and no. With a DSLR or any SLR, film included you alway view through the lens at the Max aperture so it's nice and bright for your eyes. When you take the picture the camera "stops down" the lens before firing. In mirrorless this doesn't happen as you are viewing the image on either on the EVF or LCD off the sensor at the aperture you will be taking the picture. No need in mirrorless to push the "stop down" button to check depth of field. So the Simple adaptor can have a stop or block that catches the "stop down" lever on the lens, this may need to be spring loaded for some older lenses not sure. But no need for a mechanical lever in the camera body to "stop down' before taking the picture.

Vipmediastar_JZ

I enjoy the Df with non-ai and ai-s lens. I hope the adapter is compatible with all the lens. I would be probably be easier to focus these manual focus lens.

snakebunk

rmp said:

I keep seeing sensor size charts that indicate the new Nikon mirrorless sensor/mount size could support a medium format sensor. Is that correct. Is it a possibility?

I've been thinking about this too. I hope there is a possibility for a larger sensor with the new mount. But I think Nikon will stick to fx at least until the transition to mirrorless is completed.

HankB

Don't forget that the AF-S lenses are mostly "G" lenses (I hope I have used the right Nikon terminology) meaning no aperture ring on the lens body. So the aperture can only be set on the camera, and except for "E" and "P" lenses, the camera or adapter must have a "motor" to operate the diaphragm. And if it is in the camera body, the adapter must still mechanically pass this motion through to the lens just as F mount extension tubes and tele converters do.

mhedges

How does that work exactly? Is it controlled by how much that lever is moved? Or is the lever more of an on/off thing and there's another control internal to the lens that governs which exact f stop it opens/closes to?

Andrewz

@HankB okay you got me it, G lenses will need the mechanical connection to adjust the aperture of the lens.

mhedges

Yeah that's what I thought